hello and welcome back to another episode of the cookie jar golf podcast we are having a fantastic time of where
we’re recording these of late I’m currently sat just in the Jack Asia room
Jack ashram Paul um which is a nice segue to introduce Our Guest for today of course Bruce is
on my left I should add good evening um Paul Craven how did you describe yourself
magician historian well that’s very good manager um I was in the city for 30 years and
I’m lucky enough to find myself down living in deal and a member of Royal St Paul’s I’ve been a member now since the
late 1990s and I’m sort of semi-retired now but what I do do is I’m a public speaker
talking about something called Behavioral Science which is really a a piece of jargon to say how real people
make real decisions in the real world and so when it comes to thinking about psychology and decision making
there’s nowhere better than a golf course to really question your own thoughts and judgments
well we I suppose the um the kind of the the inspiration behind
this podcast was a cracking day you and I had here in January um for a birthday party and we got chatting and obviously you’re quite
involved as the club’s archivist as a historian I understand your family have been quite involved here through the
club um maybe just kind of kick us off and just talk about a little bit about deal or raw sync ports raw sank ports I don’t
know how we quite what the right pronunciation is there a bit of French in there well I don’t know you know I’ve
heard it I don’t know am I right or wrong here is there some it’s it’s an interesting question um I should just correct you for the
beginning I’m not actually the club archivist I’m one of the people involved with with trying to preserve and promote
the club’s history now there’s a team of us but your question about is it rules Singapore to rules San
quilts has been asked many times in the history of the club since we became a royal Club and uh you hear both spoken
and rather interestingly back in 1985 the then Captain General finally called
and decided that the controversy about was it French sank or English sink he
actually wrote to the Queen Mother who was then the Lord Warden of the sing-sangports and and I’ve actually in
front of me a copy of the letter dated 15th of February 1985. and Finney writes to her majesty Queen Mother Queen
Elizabeth Queen Mother Madam with my humble Duty I’m writing to you in your capacity as Royal Warden of the
sing-sangports that I have the privilege of being a member of the royal Singapore’s golf club and it seems that we at the club
are unable to agree on the correct pronunciation of the word and so he basically asks uh how’s it
pronounced and he makes it clear what the options are um I would most be most grateful to learn your opinion should it be sank as
in the boat sank or sync as in the kitchen sink blah blah blah blah I
remain your honorable most humble obedient servant now amazingly that letter got a pretty quick reply uh
actually a couple of days later and uh the letter was from the private secretary to the queen mum and she and
it’s written um Dear Mr Gordon I write to thank you for your letter of the 15th of February just a Queen Elizabeth Queen
Mother whilst not wishing to assume any Authority in the matter of pronunciation
Queen Elizabeth has a personal preference the sink being pronounced sync as in the
kitchen sink rather than using the French pronunciation obviously the whole question is a matter
of opinion and the queen mother would never wish to be dogmatic about it you’re sincerely
so we we do try and call it sync ports uh when we can but occasionally I I say
sang but that’s right um so it’s a it’s a fun it’s a fun conversation we had
brilliant I I you hear it so referred to affectionately so many different ways they obviously dealers you know it’s
kind of common sort of phrase um maybe just be quite interested to help explain some of the chronology
around the golf courses here around deal and sandwich because I’m writing thinking Rawson George’s was the first
with laid law pervs when that was kind of put down just talk to us about how raw sync ports came to be in then yes I
mean the the original the rumors and I don’t think they’ve been fully substantiated was that some members of
Royal Wimbledon came down uh to this area and I think three of them came down and they sort of went I think went up a
church and looked at the land they could see from sandwich and they thought that one area would be quite good for a golf course which later became Wilson George
George’s and one hour become deal s history really started in in 1892
there was a meeting overseen by a major general JM Graham and they had a meeting in town and they agreed
they couldn’t construct an 18-hole golf course but they agreed a nine-hole golf course would fit rather nicely and uh so
they leased I think 160 Acres from Lord northbourne and within literally a few
months they’d had a nine Hole Golf Course up and running and a clubhouse it was extraordinarily quick to design
and construct and start playing and actually the first competition was held in in June 1892 It Was Won by gato
Eccles who became a captain in uh in 1993 but it all happened very quickly and uh
the original nine holes it’s a very interesting layout because what can I say about the first nine
holes well where would that take us to have fun well it took us out to the fifth so the fact is the the holds one
two three I’ll come back to four in a minute and five are basically the original holes and then you crossed over
from the current fifth to uh 15th 16th 17th 18th so those are
the nine so you can actually still play with you pretty much the original sort
of layout of the original line by playing the first five and the and the and the back four I’m not it’s not quite
like that but it’s it’s pretty close because what happened was the the sixth was a short hole from the back of the
fifth green yeah it’s one is now the 15th green okay yeah so like a flick across so you go across and that was the
original line and of course Link’s golf is traditionally nine out nine back or in this case uh you know five out of
four back or something with a crossover uh and and um but they decided by the end of the
century by the end of the 19th century that they wanted more holes and they tried they built nine more but then some
floods came so it wasn’t until 18 19 1899 that the 18 holes the full 18 holes were
opened and and that was you know a big move so suddenly we were an 18-hole golf
course in in 18 in 1899 so but as I say I I always like the idea
you can play more or less the original nine holes um on those original nine holes let’s
just go through them quickly the first now the first our first hole at deal is pretty unusual why
there aren’t that many first holes that go past the clubhouse right because
you want to get away from the club and then ideally you’ve got to walk up to the First Tee and then drive down you’ve
got a car park on your right you’ve got that Clubhouse on your right uh often the wind’s going from left to right so
your first thoughts on the TR it’s not a gentle Stars it’s a it’s a filthy star and many a ball ends up in the car park
we’ve had the clubhouse hit that we’ve had the clock on the clubhouse hit we’ve had people on the balcony
because we have a balcony that overlooks the first first Fairway we’ve had Bulls up there for a big and then we’ve even
had balls on the putting green which is further on on the right uh beyond the clubhouse and so it’s an extraordinary
nervous start particularly if you’re a high handicapper like me but but plenty of good golfers struggle
particularly with the left or right wind and then of course you’ve got the ditch you know you’ve got a a the ditch the
the water next to the green and so it’s pretty unique isn’t it yeah
it’s it’s and it’s scary and of course there’s so much match play here and um so it’s often the 19th hole so picture
this you’re playing in a major competition you’ve gone down the 19th match play the
balcony is full of sometimes slightly inebriated spectators uh and you’ve got a lot of pressure on
you you’ve got hit a good drive you’ve then got a second shot over the water you’ve got the the clubhouse watching
you I mean it’s it’s brilliant it’s Unique and uh um it’s wonderful and uh there must be
so many great stories of you know so many prestigious events that have been played here and and match play in
particular where you’re going down the 19th Hole I mean I remember hearing one not that I’ve played in half a year but one I think someone overcooked their
drive maybe just a bit of adrenaline running High and his Partners tried to sort of Play It kind of one foot in the
ditch and was totally miscued it and a couple of Spectators are walking up and they’ve not quite seen it in one of the
other Spectators close to it says yeah I’ve Just Seen A backstroke and a breaststroke I mean you can imagine that that yeah it
could be quite high drama it is hard job in fact even this year I was watching some of the the famous health and Hewitt competition which we have here and uh
and that’s a long tradition that goes back to the 20s I mean I think it’s the world’s
biggest amateur foursomes competition it certainly used is that right I mean obviously if that happened here it’s something to talk about so that’s always
been played a deal correct and a little bit of George is where some of the other matches are played as well is that right
deal took a sort of as the official home I think in the second year of the Harvard year which is in the 1920s and
traditionally they played the first two days of this knockout at deal and George’s and then the last two days
getting you know 64 schools down to the last 842
um it’s on the weekend is is done here at deal it’s a wonderful Edition it brings you know huge amounts of of
people coming back to have a good time there’s some very good golf played sometimes there’s some as you pointed
out some some tricky golf played particularly with some of the holes um yeah and and you know it’s it’s a it’s a
great fun time for the for the whole town actually as well as just as the club a lot of memories are shared I
don’t I’m not nearly good enough to plan uh my school side but um a lot of
members come out and support it just because it is quite an occasion as I say it’s a lot of folsomes and remember so
getting back to the club again and you know this has always been the foursome’s two ball club uh we do allow four balls
on on Mondays and Thursdays in fact you’ve enjoyed that today and we have to do that to be commercial but the Youth
of the club is is a quick game and it’s a good game I kind of Scots thinking there and and um
a lot of two balls and particularly foursomes is sort of considered to be the the the the the proper game and of
course they have here is a foursome competition so if they get over the first we then got the old second to play we’ve got a
long which is a lovely little blood Par Four um the thirds of par five which is nice now the fourth third is just quickly on
that I mean the green on three is one of one of the most unusual you’ll see really isn’t it it’s it’s a you know
it’s just an incredible green site it is and and if you look back at some of the old photographs from the early 20th
century a lot of them feature the third green for a couple of reasons one is as
you call it it’s a spectacular greens I think the words complex in this day and age Green’s complex I fell into that
trap there yeah but secondly it’s very good for spectators because if you’re watching a
big competition the third allows you for those listing it’s a kind of it’s no big
bowl and so there’s you can stand around the bowl because I can empathy it’s it’s
and there’s all the Glady tool combat that goes on down on the third green and of course you’ll if you’re trying to
make the green in two uh it’s a decent hit and you never quite know where you are relative to them it
all runs in yeah there’s a lot of excitement to that yeah it’s it’s an absolutely brilliant hole the third
absolutely brilliant the third and then you come off the third and you think oh a bit of a spike now we’ve got a a par
three on the fourth and um it’s but the this is a whole that
has changed actually since the original front nine because it used to go uh across where it does now now the hole
runs parallel to the beach in the old days it was called Stanley parlor and it went from sort of the beach Edge over
the mound onto a blind onto a blind green effect and green
and it was like this for the first 46 years of the club it was called Sandy parlor so you hit a blind shot a short
hole and it was quite a famous hole because when they
converted it to running from um sort of from across from the coast to down the
coast where you can see the hole now I say it’s 46 years on from its original the number of holes in one achieved
uh diminished greatly so when it was a blind shot loads and
loads of holes in what happened because the caddies would literally wait Over the Hole run up and put the ball in the hole and then get a bloody great tip
from that from the player at the end and then once it didn’t become a blind child you’ll see it guess what the holes in one’s dropped so that’s that’s a
um uh a true story um and so that was in that’s interesting well today though tonight it’s the
incredible part three you know the way that greens angled towards you as well sort of you know front left to back
right you know there’s a real premium on finding the right number off there it’s a you know like you say it’s no it’s not
a kitchen three is it it’s a really yeah it’s a hell of a start yeah it’s it’s a whole I’m very fond of for lots of
reasons what you get you I think you do get some obviously holes in ones there my Uncle Richard it was Captain he had a
hole in one here back in the 60s on that and he claims he had a terrible shot he hit it basically left and it hit a sort
of spiny Ridge and shot across the the green to the pin that was the back right
and went in and he said it was an embarrassing shot no pictures on the scorecard there were no pictures on the
scorecard and and and then um talking of which there’s a wonderful story and there are so many stories about deal
deal is is is built upon a a rich Heritage a sort of vintage stories and
there was a guy called Alan Den who was a member here before the war and um he uh he was playing in a
competition with a that an Irish professional called Lionel Munn and they were playing in the summer of 1939 so
it’s quite poignant given you know what happens a few months later and he started his medal rounds
and bear in mind the first four holes are par four par four par five par three
par five you start his his round part birdie eagle Ace he went four
three two one so he’s standing five under on the fifth t
what does he score on the fifth a ten so he’s he’s suddenly leveled
power after five having gone four three two one ten and and again I have it on
on reasonable Authority that that with this extraordinary start he decided that he’d had enough and he and walked to the Checkers in
which as you know is just across the the course you have the crossover to the side which is a a pub and they decided
to sort of celebrate or drown their sorrows with a four three two one ten with a few um whatever they were
drinking those days and the war broke out a few weeks later and
so it’s we’ve had a good authority that that was the last round of golf that Allen Den ever played
imagine that your last few holes four three two one ten anyway the spicy scorecardates yeah I mean that’s
incredible and there’s reminders of that around the clubhouse as well of course I mean one of the first things I remember when we when I first came here in
January and we were talking on the balcony actually is the little plaque that’s out there with the shrapnel in the in the face
um you know where there’s kind of a lot of the stuff and you can still see the pill boxes out on the course today can’t you which is a a reminder I guess of
world war yes and of course the course got the course got you know churned up a lot uh during the wars it was used for
training and purposes and so a lot of redesign of the particularly the back nine happened
after the wars um and um but this made the course of
this today I mentioned Lionel Man actually because he was playing with with Den without focusing so he was an
Irish International and he was actually club champion in the 30s and we think we have something that is
unique with him because he was he was wandering around the course apparent he wasn’t actually playing and he’s got to the he
was watching someone play and he got to the 14th which is another part it’s a long path for it’s a 200
yard plus part three and um someone said to him go online I’ll have a shot and he said he was literally walking around doing nothing
and um he said because we want to take a picture and and so he picked up a club gave it a
quick waggle put a ball on the T and hit it and it sailed into the air up towards the 14th green rolled up and went
straight in the hole and um the beautiful thing is we’ve got a photograph of it and we think this is
the first ever photograph of someone striking a hole in one and you must look at the photograph because it’s on the
stairs at the moment and it’s wonderful because Lionel man looks like he doesn’t give a have a care in the world he’s got
a a cigarette in his mouth right he’s just hit this shot well whatever and it goes in the hole and it’s the
first we think recorded photograph of a hole in one so again a little bit of History first incredible little Singapore and it’s it’s wonderful to
think that those things that I know this stuff would you um so then we’ve got so many stories like this of of
quirky things happen in fact when when we on the um we were looking to
when we’re still doing it we’re trying to reorganize some of the memorabilia some of the artwork some of the paintings some of the prints
we ended up thinking well this section here we might have some pictures of the clubhouse this section we’re here we
have sort of how the course has changed we ended up with a collection of photographs and various things and we
that were just unusual it didn’t fit into any obvious category um one of the the guys on the on this
group of I’m on said um we need to call it quirky corner because we’ve got so many quirky unusual
fun things like the photo of Lionel Munn and they don’t really fit into any obvious plays but they are interesting
and and more recently about one of the things we’ve done very recently in our response is we built a with thanks to as
a nation we have from our chipping Club we’ve got a wonderful new display cabinet at the top of the stairs and in
it we have lots of historical things including Francis remix medal they’ve got minutes of some of the old meetings
which are hilarious if you look through them uh there’s some uh some there’s a tribute to Karen Staples in there
because she’s obviously a very successful member of the club who’s done great things for for golf
uh there’s actually a replica of the open trophy because we help we’ve held the open twice a deal we actually been
awarded the open five times for the record five times we’ve been asked to
host the open but unfortunately uh Wars and floods yeah it’s a very great great
shame actually because uh and the quality of the course is absolutely terrific and and it’s got better and
better and better but we’ve we’re very proud to have hosted two opens and you know 1909 When It Was Won by JH Taylor I
think with 295 shots and then hosted it in 1920 by George Duncan who won it with with 303 shots it was an amazing open
because he was 13 Strokes behind Dave Mitchell uh with two rounds to go but
actually you may be interested to know that actually deal was awarded the open five times but it’s only happened here
twice largely due to unfortunately outbreaks of war or terrible floods
because obviously being by the Sea and we’ve just been so unlucky uh uh to have
missed out on essentially at least a couple of opens because of uh flooding I
mean it went to Georgia it went to Georges of course went to George’s well that’s the thing when you read the read the the notes on it you know when
there’s this severe flooding it seems to hop across you know some of the neighbors be it princes or um Georges
I’m certain that when we were talking last back in January that we were talking about the sixth which you know
one of one of the great short par fours in golf without without question did you say at the time the sixth green almost
that was used to go back straight up onto the sea because now you’ve got this massive sea wall anyone that’s played a
deal will remember the sea wall that kind of cuts across the you know the whole sort of periphery of the the the
course that wasn’t there before right yeah so the sixth is a it’s all a kind of plateau uh next to the next of the
beach as it would have been in the old days so for most of its life the sixth has been a beach High Plateau which you
play up to from your second shot and um when the floods came over once I
think it was I think we’re talking late 70s when they went out onto the the course
the following morning they couldn’t find the sixth green because the beach had literally gone over the top and filled
it up and the whole Plateau was was you know became the new beach so we were lucky enough they built a sea wall which
has never been breached since the sixth sixth is a fascinating hole because I
mean I think most people appreciate it it’s one of the cleverest holes on the course it’s a very short Par Four but
it’s a dog leg right onto this plateau and why I think it’s so interesting is because and again I say this is someone
who isn’t a good player but I can imagine being a good player standing on the T which is by the sea
wall and you can see this green and you think it’s not really flaring you in it’s like I can have a little crack at
that flies straight at it as the crow flies it seems perfectly manageable George got
it on there today did he yeah stuck the green yeah he’s been on the ground it’s like landing on a coffee table isn’t it
it is but of course what happens is people people uh slice it onto the beach lost ball uh it’s it’s no good short
left of the green either you want to be well back don’t you almost want to be oh where you were was almost too far the
sensible way that an amateur should play it is just to dink it down the Fairway and then in a wedge onto you know back
back towards the green and then hopefully two parts for us four and move on but so many people
the senator aggressively and um we can get some real back slapping Acres Sam
and I are on the same side when we said we managed to split the strategy of that today yeah I I just thump drive a sort
of smother hook left with you know feet about three feet above the ball and no Prospect of a birdie and Bruce played
the dinky iron and a nice little wedge to a few feet and uh yeah well well said there Bruce nice to get you your own
golf into these podcasts where possible well it’s Rich coming from you but yeah I want to talk about a little bit sorry just on the sickness I I always said
that’s my own little um heuristic my mental shortcut about how to tell if someone’s a member here because if you’re at the bottom of that
plateau nearly every single member I know whatever their handicap level will put
yeah a lot of visitors if at the bottom Plateau try and Chip or they try and it
doesn’t work it really doesn’t work unless you and so one of the things that when we have we’ve had some fantastic
competitions here in recent years we had for example we had the boys uh accommodation a couple of years ago which is superb golf last year and I
went and stood on the back of the sixth to see how these long-hitting youngsters would hit them and of course some of them did go for the green
uh more often than not you know these scratch players or better than scratch players would end up scrabbling to try
and save a bogey because they would miss the green they’d be in the rough they’d be on the beach or whatever that goes You far whereas the people that just
played it sort of line and length down the Fairway onto the green two part four move on
um so it but it does tempt you to try and be aggressive and go for a birdie and again I say this is a high
handicapper it’s not not much of my problem but I think it’s one that you you take on it’s a bit it’s a clever hole
interestingly we had um one of our um uh great benefactors was Ainslie Bridgeland
who actually did a lot to save the club when it was in financial difficulties uh uh back in the old days
he hated the whole really yeah and um the the story and The Story Goes that he
he really hated so much that he’d play the fifth green and then walk off the 17th
um but he he was in a minority of one I think I think most people appreciate it in the game aren’t they I mean I don’t
know what you touched on it then behavioral economics and heuristics I don’t know where one starts and the
other big and stops and the other begins but I mean I don’t know if this is putting you on the spot a bit here Paul
but how much of that do you see through your studies in Behavioral Science behavioral economics in the game of golf
be it the way people go through clubhouses and behave in golf clubs or whether it’s out on the course
and the decisions they make how I mean I mean this is stuff that you’ve spent a lot of time studying that you know to be
honest with you I have very little understanding of myself but I’m guessing there’s some a few things in there that you kind of witness and see that make
sense to you that you know other people might not I don’t know yeah I mean the obvious thought I have slightly
embarrassed is that if someone who’s like me who studied the human mind and psychology should be a better golfer
shouldn’t I yeah why can’t I do I’ve you know why can’t I practice what I preach um the the answers I mean there’s so
much like gold psychology and you’ve seen the books published about golf these days there’s as much written about what goes on between the years as as how
you swing a club and and you know things like swing thoughts and and I mean Andrew Reynolds is the pro here who’s
given me plenty of lessons uh in in my life um there’s this he points out things to
me that that I think even you know our basic lessons in Psychology but people
forget about them so for example Leo I remember one lesson he said to me um right Paul I want you to stand over
there hit the ball Now where’s your Target and I’m sort of looking down the driving range saying the you know that
red flag that’s down there couple hundred yards away that’s my target he said no no I’m going to ask you the question again
what’s your first Target and I looked up and I said well the red flag he said no your first Target
he said the first Target is the ball you have to hit the ball and he said you know and you start think
about that that’s that is the first Target I want to swing and hit the ball and and so why is that important because
one of the fools that most amateur golfers make they start looking up they look you know first keep your head down look at the ball and and that’s your
first Target so and that I would say that’s a psychological tip rather than a a physical tip
um it’s it’s and then of course when you’ve got some of the hazards on this course here like the water so we have water on
the first water on the 18th it’s extraordinary isn’t it the presence of water how it changes the way you view
a shot like the balance beam analogy you walk across a balance beam that’s on the floor and you don’t have an issue but
you raise it 20 feet in the air and all of a sudden exactly and and and and even as I say you mentioned earlier you know
good players players are playing off scratch it changes the way they view a shot
so I love watching the psychology of the game I can’t claim that I’ve improved my game much but there’s a lot going on of
course one of the things you see here and I’ve I’m writing my book at the moment um which includes some golf but
it also includes lessons I’ve learned in the golf club and you know the book is about
persuasion sales communication how to be more effective how to be more persuasive and there are so many stories here from
inside the clubhouse that teach me anecdotes about being a better Persuader one of the things I put in my book
um we have a we had a wonderful member here called Johnny Gould the late Johnny Gould who was a character a Welshman
very good golfer a very interesting fellow enthusiastic loved his rugby loved his
schools loved it loved everything about life and I remember one day I was I was a
young man and this was this would be the late 90s and John John was pretty senior in those days and I said um Goldie can I
get you a drink and he said yes young man I’m lovely he said um uh ajin
and he paused and he just said and I’ll leave the size to you
now that is genius psychology because I can’t not buy him a large one but he hasn’t asked for large gin okay
so it sounds silly but but isn’t that clever that he’s let me decide I thought you know and and so that lots of little
anecdotes like that it’s like decision framework isn’t it is that right so a lot of this is about how you create a
framework for people to make decisions and if you do that effectively you can almost coax people down a certain path
right it’s also quite interesting I think what you say about you know having a very good understanding in the
academic context all of the kind of human mind but I think um Danny Kahneman talks about it in Thinking Fast and Slow
about although he looked into decision making and maybe how the mind works it’s
actually very hard to necessarily carry that over into a practical sense and kind of what you were saying on in the
goal for example there you can you can understand it maybe in the abstract or in an intellectual context but then
applying it practically can be quite quite challenging that’s right and and one of the great insights that the Canon
book gave us uh and indeed a big Topic in able science and indeed life
generally is how much do we do that is really should we say logical rational
evidence-based uh we kind of like to think we’re using that part of the brain that does those
things and yet what a lot of studies what a lot of practical life shows you is actually although we think we’re
being logical and systematic too often we end up making decisions based on emotion
um it’s kind of what do you call System One versus system two we make instinctive or reactive or emotional
um you know decisions and and however smart we are you know Homo sapiens 200
000 years worth of that developing that neocortex brain uh actually we we often resort to sort of a more ancient type of
thinking uh one of the things I I I’m quite Keen to do is is when I talk think about well
prove that ball in real life you know give us an example um I talk about this in my my public
speaking you know if you if you see one of those signs that says beware of pickpockets and you stand by a sign that
says beware pickpockets and you watch what happens when a crowd of people walk past a sign as they see the sign what do
most people do tap their pockets they tap their pockets they literally now where would you stand if you’re a
pickpocket by the way and watch where by the sun watch where they keep their belly wallets right because it becomes much easier to pickpocket someone if you
never know what it is so of course the the rational logical brain should say I mustn’t tap my
pockets around here because someone could be watching me I’ll wait and even if I did tap my powers to the wall it’s not there what am I going to do about it
it’s there or it’s not there but we all do it then we do the instinctive thing which is to check it
what we should be doing if we were really rationalist saying I mustn’t tell myself it’s now I’m going to walk on 500 yards and then I might do it later on
just to reassure myself but we do tend to resolve that now yeah that’s a that sounds like it’s a step away from the
golf course but all the time a lot of what we’re trying to do on the golf course is decide what’s the logical
rational thing to do and what what do we think we can do what are we what do we feel we can do and
um I speak for myself you know if I wish I could take myself give my mouse play the shot you know you can
play you’re not the one you think you can play there’s a big difference why does Golf Show at people’s frailties so
much more than maybe other sports do you think I have my own theory on this it’s because you’re hitting is still a bull
and you therefore have a lot of time to think you think that the time means there’s less Instinct and therefore
thought Creeps in or do you think there’s more fear and emotion that’s going on out
there through the time I don’t know what are the kind of you think it’s mainly because it’s a stationary Target you’ve
got the luxury of time which then allows the mind to then get overactive I think you have more time to doubt
so in other words I I I guess I could I’ll try and liken it to a penalty shootout at the end of a football game
now you imagine that you’re one of the penalty takers you’re waiting on the halfway line with your teammates and you
know you’re going next or you know you’re number four number five and you’re thinking you know where do I hit the ball doing a left straight even if
you practice it hard down the center you know and whereas in a game if you’re
playing football it’s you know not just totally active it’s really reactive and I think a lot of that comes into golf is
that you what you see a bull you know assume you find it uh you walk up to it you then got to think about it a lot and
then you start thinking well what shots can I play what shots should I play what shots might I be able to play if I hit
the ball really well what happens if I don’t get this one wrong yeah and and I think two minutes certainly it’s any I
can speak on behalf of the high handicappers we play Shots we shouldn’t even attempt sometimes we should just get it out and just move forward and
there’s a fear isn’t there like I can speak firsthand there’s a fear of not getting it right and whether that’s what
someone you know thinks of your golf or what happens to your scorecard or what happens to the match it’s the water
example again isn’t it there’s that sort of fear that kicks in there’s brooding
time as well of course isn’t there you know you can hear die poor shot and and you’ve got you
know a few hundred yards perhaps to you know think about it and and overanalyze potentially where where you
went wrong and wait for your playing partnership their shots and you can maybe sort of get yourself into a bit of a mile with it
um I’m mindful of time because we are actually for the second time in this podcast nudging up against close to
closing time here at uh in the clubhouse but if people wanted to find out a little bit more about
heuristics Behavioral Science where would you point them well hopefully though they might consider buying my
book which I hope will come out later this year but in the meantime my website poolcraven.com might be a good place to
start or my my Twitter handle which is at cravenpartners but but back to golf again
um one of the I just want to just make sure there’s a couple of there’s a few stories that we we definitely get past
because the history of this club is is just so rich there’s such a rich scene of wonderful things here and one of the
things this club is known for is the bonomy of the members and and you know
whether it be the dinners we have we’re a very Progressive Club but we actually had the we had we’ve had lots of um
I think we were certainly way ahead of some of our our nearby competitors in terms of a ladies golf uh it’s worth
noting that we had a deal ladies Club in 1899 here yeah which would be right
which is pretty special I think um and uh we had the ladies Emma so I
think it was 19 I was in 1902 it was certainly very on very very early on in
the club’s history but the whole club culture is about fun isn’t it it almost seems to take the certain Traditions that are really
important like pace of play and foursome’s golf awesome golf match play
you know dressing correctly but beyond that it’s been that the encouragement is to have fun enjoy yourself this is not a
place that you wanted people ever come into and just feel uncomfortable or start your stuffy at all it just feels
like a place for enjoyment and and and to do that on a championship golf course is really fantastic because it’s weird I
don’t I hope I don’t say this I mean we’re not a crusty Club we’re not a it’s a very very
um it’s a it’s it’s a wonderful It’s a Wonderful atmosphere and the members are very very friendly to visitors we want
you know we welcome visitors all the time um I should give a shout out to one of
my little private passions which is related to history and golf and and that’s I um I’m one of uh about a dozen
members here who regularly I mean readily not frequently but regularly play Hickory Golf using using clubs in
the 1920s yeah we saw Ali Baker out there Simon Simon Killingworth yeah
playing the course backwards or something I that’s not something I’ve uh
but there is something and again listen I’m a higher handicapper so what do I know but there is something when you on
the rare occasions I do hit a good shot with a hickory Club whether it be an old old brassy or Buffy or it sounds good it
feels good it feels very natural and I guess you’ve never done it you can’t explain it to people and Andrew Reynolds
are our Pro who’s been a pro here for 44 years now I mean he’s he’s a hickory expert he’s won the English national for
example and he was the one one of the ones that you know got me into it and we occasionally have fun games and now I
probably played 20 my golf secret golf with a dozen or so other Hickory players here and and I’d recommend anybody try
it because it’s fantastic it really is um and we play off the 40s off the blue T’s to be fair the bunker placement all
of a sudden makes sense doesn’t it yeah and the suddenly you actually when I play of the four T’s about five eight is
the length of the course you suddenly see things on this course that you kind of think well that makes real sense and
and and again it’s hard to sort of describe it logically and rationally without getting too emotional but it
does feel very special but it’s a great course whether you’re playing with with modern clubs or old
clubs and and the Hickory team certainly appreciate it I think having that and as you say Paul having that kind of
connection given there is such a um a long history here of great amateur
golf I think having that connection with with the likes of J.H Taylor for example in the Hickory game and just having that
appreciation of how good those guys were to knock it around a golf course in 75
Strokes using um using that sort of equipment I think it’s something that’s easy to forget everyone talks about you know the games
getting so much better and more athletic and actually you know you go out and you play a few holes with Hickory clubs and
you’re like okay let’s not write off let’s not write off these guys too quickly yeah I I
their skill is phenomenal when you see and of course don’t forget you know the state of the greens in the old days
compared to now and then this course in my lifetime we you know James bledge for and now Ben
Williams have just worked wonders with this course and it’s in the most brilliant condition you played it this
afternoon uh now compare that with how it must have been in the days of the Hickory Gulf when you know there was
rough and there was mud and there was and the greens were bubbly and they had stymies in those days as well so Putters
were quite lofted because they had to get them so it some of those scores from the
early days are phenomenal given they were playing with Hickory clubs and and you know when we go back and do play
with them I get a sense of History there’s a bit of a connection with it and also everything that’s happened
across the links well funnily enough you sent me a message um a week or two ago we put something on
Twitter said you’ve got to try you’ve got a time travel machine you’ve got one round trip where are you going where and
when and I did say I was going to ask for an answer actually when we did this podcast when would you go back to Paul
where would be your thing when would it be would it be here at deal
I would definitely go back to 1920 here would you and I want to see oh well there was a famous incident here that’s
when George Duncan won the open but the event that really captures my imagination was was Walter Hagen who
turned up at deal and he was the big hot shot flamboyant smartly dressed
character and there was another hype about him and and and and although Hagen
did very very badly that open I think he finished second last really yeah he did terribly badly
um what he what that was most known for was that when he arrived he turned up in a in a chauffeur driven um I think was
an austro Daimler uh and he immediately basically he sort of asked where he could um change and
they said you’ve got to change in the in the professionals area behind the pro shop and he didn’t he wanted to change the clubhouse and as I say he was wearing these
beautiful clothes and stuff and he said he wasn’t happy about that so he actually ended up going back to
his hotel and changing there but to make a point in front of the the members uh
he ended up parking his car by the flagpole outside the clubhouse just below the balcony it was actually no way
a little bit further down the um the course that is now but it’s pretty much where it is now and he’d make a point of
eating a sort of smoked salmon and caviar yeah he didn’t have a taste
seafood and eating and right in front of the uh the clubhouse of the members to
make a point and and you know and and then change your shoes there as well before walking so that’s where you’re going with your time driving machine 102
years ago right outside the front so we’ll see Hagen have his caviar and sand Lobster I mean come on I mean and he’s
making and of course again talk to um any historians of the game they’ll tell you that Hagan changed the game
professionals he basically made them respectable as opposed to just being yeah some sort of handling class and and
he’s one of my heroes I mean well perhaps I’ll finish with one that’s the probably a great segue for the Hagen who
from thinking isn’t it yeah well yes that is currently my uncle Uncle Rich when he was um Captain here in 2011 he
introduced a new competition and and I have no idea the the uh uh the
reputable nature of his historical Source but he claims that when Hagen was
here sometime in the 20s he did play deal Georges and princes on the same day
so 18 holes each course on the same day wow and and again let’s just remind ourselves let’s step back we have three
Championship golf courses within a couple of miles of each other I mean how lucky it is it’s actually incredible
coming back here today is it’s an incredible feeling when you see it all together I mean visitors are so lucky
they can play three Championship golf courses and and literally go and we we do get quite a lot of visitors doing
that particularly America but it’s how lucky we are and I’m really aware of that so anyway Uncle Rich
discovered allegedly that um Pagan played uh goal for the three courses I
I’ve yet to find the source but I’ll give them the doubt uh the and so Richard came up with this idea that the
George’s princess and deal would play a competition which he was called the Hagen hoof I’ll come back to the hoof in a second
uh which would evolve uh teams of I think it was 10 or 12 uh foursomes of
course it’s foursomes um playing uh all three quarters in the day and in the early days of the
competition you didn’t play it course by course by course you played it whole by hole hopped over the fence because the
three horse courses are essentially adjacent um with little walks along the beach required occasionally and then you clock
back over the fence and play back and this proved to be a wonderfully successful competition in
the sense that everybody wants to play in the Hagen hoof if you feel you can do 54 holes in a day if you’re lucky because you start about
six six thirty the weather’s going to be kind what you don’t want to do is to having three holes of going around in
the rain and it’s all we played in April for example I was lucky enough to play in it last year for my first time ever because as I
say generally it’s a pretty it’s a lower handicap thing but it’s it is handicap adjusted so high-ending I’m just carrying it in
and Prince has always put in a very low handicapped team George is a bit higher and deal the highest of all because as I
say we we think that taking part is more important than the winning and and we were lucky enough to win last year and I
was I remember because we played Princess first and then played deal second and then George’s third and I was
playing with her one of my favorite members of this club Dr Colin Prendergast
and we we played players a pair all three courses and and column is just a
delight to play with he’s encouraging uh he’s always very kind he never says a
rude word he he sees the positive in everything and which is a partner in foursomes is really appreciated
and he didn’t really give me any advice right the way through until we’re on the edge of the 18th green at
George’s the last holiday and we’re down on the left hand side and some of you may know it’s called Duncan’s Hollow I
didn’t know it was called that at the time after George Duncan who won the open Indeed in 1920. and column who
hasn’t given me any advice at all says Paul he says I want you to make sure you hit it up over that Ridge and so yeah column and so I thought it
was give me advice why is he giving me advice here now uh anyway I stand over the boys just pull stop Yes column
I want you to really make sure you get it over that Ridge it’s very important no I’m I’m thinking hang on I’m the high
handicapper here um I played okay so far I’m quite pleased who I’m playing you haven’t given advice at all but for some reason
this 18th hole there’s 54. unsolicited so I’m sort of having a stand back go behind it again and have a
look at it and I should say the way they were massing stove for points so it’s that it’s the combined Teamster with the
points and I gave that behind again and he said oh he says one more thing he says the hum get it over so you said it two or
three times I I I got the message so I know I hit this thing so bloody hard but I think
but sure enough he was right because I had to hit it really hard to get it over and it went over the hump and went as I
was 10 foot from the hole it was fine I looked at him you smiled and I thought and then he just missed the past we got
a five for two on the last five or two points and then I said Colin I did understand and we shook hands with the
opposition that the two teams some princess and George’s and he came over and he gave me a big hug and he said
you know why that mattered and I said Nathan because we’ve got a hundred points across the three courses in total
we had we met we bought the 100 Point Club which is a kind of special little group of people get 100 points on the
three courses on the day and there’s very few people have done it and then we later found out that we’d won it for the
first time in 10 years deal one we’ll sing what’s one that hangs with the first and uh the only sad thing for me
was Michael had just died a few months beforehand but we all tested that night and kind of think he was looking down on us
um and thinking well my useless golfing nephew Paul has finally done something
um of notes and and being part of the the the Hagen hoof winning team just
quickly on the hoof um the trophy is indeed a hoof like a it’s a kind of old Inkwell in there’s a
cow or cattle hoof a cow’s hoop uh and it’s a bison hoof according to Richard when he donated it
and if his idea that the Hagan had played 54
holes in a day hasn’t yet been um verified uh the second part of that what’s the hoof doing he claims that
Walter Hagen who was a big hunter in his retirement shot the whatever it was
bison and then took the hoof and then made it into a trophy which became the Hagen hoof now I really think that’s
pretty dubious but there’s a bit of embellishment going here there’s a lot of embellishments no no the truth get in the way of that story ball and I think
you know man has been around here for this length of time we’ll almost certainly subscribe to that yeah so the hegative is It’s a Wonderful
accomplishment and it’s coming up quite soon but I mean let me finish with with a quote that sort of inspires me with it
from a psychological point of view or from a golf point of view or indeed from a a life advice point of view and of
course it was Walter Hagen who said you’re only here for a short visit so don’t hurry don’t worry and be sure
to stop and smell the flowers along the way Paul Craven that’s a magical podcast and
I think what a place to close it thank you very much for your time and um yeah thanks for having us down at
deal today it’s been a real pleasure it’s been a pleasure having you thank you very much indeed