157 – The Original 12 Holes at Prestwick with Ken Goodwin and Dave Edmondson

and welcome back to another episode of the cookie jar golf podcast I am Tom Mills and today I’m joined by Sam
Williams and today we’re not doing a Sam plays golf Tom played golf today Tom
plays golf pressed once I was absolutely gutted I would say
Wednesday this week was the most gutting day ever known that you were doing that and we were going to talk about it but
the one 50th open celebration obviously the 1860 open at presswick
uh the the work they’ve done to to build that 12-hole course as it was I was
absolutely gutted thanks for joining me just for full disclosure if you cling on
till the end of this podcast we will be um running through into a podcast that I did with Ken Goodwin and Dave Edmondson
Ken being the secretary of pressure golf club and Dave being the
greatest dude come on I think one of the greatest green keeper
agronomical we have a chat we have a chat about Agronomy a bit we have a chat about the work that they did too
to reinstate this this wonderful golf course but all that comes at the end of course and what we’re going to be doing is talking about kind of my experiences
of it and then we’ll roll into what the club did I suppose so so I know absolutely nothing about this other than
the facts I’ve come around to record a short bit of pod with you and you’ve given me a very nice media pack and firstly before we dive into the course
can I say what a brilliant media pack that is well I thought I’d give you mine because you didn’t get to go like this
is amazing like the work that must have gone into putting this together is absolutely amazing so what have you got
there let’s let’s see so you’ve got a little bag tag with the whole numbers around the side with the yardage which
you know can be a touch gimmicky when there’s 18 but seems to flow nicely with 12 doesn’t it there’s a proper
legit stroke saver for a 12-hole course which like um just shout out press with you I believe you can buy it on the
online shop you should 100 buy this like there’s like if that’s 5 10 20 quid it doesn’t
matter you should definitely quit on their online right you should buy that like in a heartbeat it’s a property it’s
not a DIY job that’s what you would get if you’re stood on the first Tierney’s day there’s a really nice pamphlet
detail in the 150th celebrations I’m trying to move it I don’t know whether I gave you an original scorecard because
we I used it but we got given original scorecards too with the bogey score on stuff nice little condensed almost
little coffee table style book again beautifully put together I’m guessing people like Jamie darling would have been involved and maybe Kenny together
they were there the guys from Lynx diary were there um so what the hell is this there’s like
a little it’s like a credit card I think that’s a memory stick with a load of images that are for a media use for so
cool a day which we’ll I imagine we’ll put on Twitter and pretend that there are four card and king of wins business
card I love all your work Sam keep doing what you’re doing brilliant that’s a nice touch from Ken um what a really nice
pack but that just I mean that’s a lot so it looks like there’s been a lot of effort yeah let’s let’s draw a line
under it now like there was a phenomenal amount of effort that had gone into recreating this on on so many different
people’s parts from you know Ken secretary organizing it and liaising with everybody that
needs to do it Dave had come in like a year and a half ago and as soon as he kind of gets the job it’s like oh by the
way we’re also doing this which obviously he’s still got to maintain 18-hole golf course but build this on
top of it while they were doing it uh he talks a little bit about that later on in the podcast about
um you know what they had to do because a lot of these areas that we’re playing through are heavy rough or were heavy
rough and they had to manage that you know to cut it down it’s not like he you can’t just cut that down to to Fairway
grade immediately no um there’s actually a little bit of land it’s quite cool there’s a little bit land on the first hole where basically
is the driving zone of the first hole which used to be uh really heavy rough
they’ve got back but it’s actually under the water table it’s below sea level only a tiny bit of the course so they’ve
constantly got a pump running um to want to shift moisture and move that moisture away from there and they’ve had to run that over time
because now they’ve cut it down to Fairway length yeah yeah it works before it’s because it’s not really a play that it doesn’t matter but now they’ve really
got to turn it on so um yeah there are some amazing amount of it then is the takeaway yeah which is
phenomenal and they’re you know they’re they’re gonna do two weeks now of celebrations to
just to celebrate the the the very first opened which was back in 1860s October
17th which is going to be the date we released this yeah um which is October 17th 1860 106. I mean it is seriously
impressive like hats off Prestwick for anyone that’s not been there it’s it’s if you if you can’t quite
picture it it’s not in the same scale the size of some of the other institutions that may have held the open
before Prestwick feels like a small members Club generally speaking I think that’s going to take a lot of effort to pull that off like wow how do you want
to run through this Thomas because I’ve got some questions about the day the event the course the Wicker Basket yeah we’ll
just run it chronologically I suppose but um huge visit um huge thank you to Western girls in
the morning that um uh allowed me to go and get drenched if any of you saw on our Instagram I got
absolutely hosed on before I played before I went to teach you for being greedy Western
girls as good as not Westinghouse was really really good um and I you know we we say it a lot it’s hard to not say it
Scottish golf is just blessed like on that Coast for those of you who don’t know in a row you’ve pretty much got
pressed with Saint Nicholas Prestwick Troon um Western girls Western girls Dundonald
kilmark brassy Turnberry Irvine up there as well but it’s Turnberry about 20
minutes apologies if I’ve missed anything two courses though but they’re yeah he’s got Robert de Bruce up there as well yeah so it’s like
it seems like all these places you go in Scotland have all got phenomenal like a plethora of really
good golf and I’d not been to Western girls I just I just reached out and they they managed to squeeze me in at like 7
40. I managed to skip around like two hours ten minutes front of the field got drenched shot about a thousand over but
had the best time yeah tough so thank you to those but um then just headed across to
to Prestwick weather was quite nice all right so with the Drone up and did a little bit of um videography work which
hopefully we’re gonna release a film in the coming days did you know where to point the Drone no so you stood there just like aimlessly waving it around
well I did a Passover that I was filming was like okay I know there’s a hole there knows a hole there and then I played it and I was like
actually what I filmed they’re not holes like it looks nice you
were just down there because the reality is like you if you don’t know where the
holes are it’s almost impossible because there’s greens everywhere and it’s really crisscross I’m looking at the
rooting card now so you know it when you think this is exactly as old
Tom would have laid this out yeah when the club was founded I mean they’ve done this before so they’ve done this event a
few times before but they’ve done it in a very rudimentary way where like a week before they cut it and they think the Green’s roughly here this was the first
time I believe they’ve put a lot of effort into it and we’ve got the greens to like green Gray
again you know they’re they’re not the standard of the 18 the the they had to
create five greens because they’re they used six of the original greens and one of them was double yeah so
um they had to create five greens one of them they just didn’t think they could get the grass up in Grass to standard
they wanted in time so they actually dug out that area and took some Fescue
from one of the one other part of the course and relayed it well and then mowed that down to Green Grass down to
Green some of the greens there because that some of the greens were pure Fescue or like 90 Fescue some of the greens
they’d cut out the fairways were quick like just the little Fairway greens would they were quick
um so just yeah they had done it before but this was the first time they’d put like proper both barrels yeah I’m out
amount of effort into it um and they pulled it off Reddit but they talked about it so
I mean what I’m sure we’ll go through the holes here but like it’s 12 holes let’s start the real soon let’s start
with a real simple nuts and bolts of this this is a 12-hole golf course yeah and in 1860 they played it three times
in a day they did two laps went for drinks at the Red Lion and then and then played 12
more and all that what was the Red Line like on the Tuesday night you went there so I went to the red line that was
because it looks like the most standard of British or Scots if you know you know post on Instagram I went to the red line
for a pint uh I’d convinced a friend of ours Sam Cooper that it was dog friendly and they should bring his dogs and he
got kicked out the second he walked in so I ended up there just being on my own neck in a pint while Celtic were playing
whoever they were playing um thank God that was on TV because I had to pretend I was watching it because
I couldn’t just sit there and stare at the ground or there’s only so long you can stare at your phone but it’s
actually now you know there’s a pub quiz going on they were watching a football it’s just a pub it’s just a pub like I was there
going like this is hallowed Turf but it’s now just a pub okay um
you wouldn’t be in there I kind of expected it to have like wooden door this isn’t going well so far you’ve
disappointed at the green speeds on the ones that implemented disappointed with the red line it’s all been a disaster
both of those things are false it’s just a couple but like I don’t know why I
kind of expected it to still be like the pub they met in when they decided to form press work in the first place it’s
cool to go though it’s like that’s like they ate at the red line um I believe when they had their lunch
and that’s where the enthused gentleman met that was the 57 enthusiastic um so 12 holes
3799 yards which would be short by Bond standards yeah it’d be short but I’d say you play
with hickories and it ain’t a bit of a leveler sure there’s a whole I think I
played it was ten uh so we played a shotgun Stars the media day the reason we were there is the media there’s lots
of different uh media Outlets there um and to get everyone on the course we started
a shotgun star shout out live great idea um and pressure is still learning from
the service so the tenth hole which is 213 yards bogey four
um we all like in our group I had the the David the professional at Prestwick uh
at Fergus a writer at golf monthly and Jamie darling Link’s diary uh wig off
began uh faked being a five handicap but actually played like a scratch handicap and not one of us made that green with a
hickory it’s 213 yards away and we all had to well first swing of the day with like just nothing in front of you when
you look down on it it’s not really awe-inspiring well no I mean and it’s a different
that’s such a premium on timing when you swing a Hickory Golf Club it’s just like you’ve got to give it so much time in
transition I think modern clubs have got people lazy we’ve been snatchy from the top and you can just wail on it but you
can’t deal with hickories you just gotta Pat everything but um yeah so can we talk about the course
record uh is in the open it’s still held by young Tommy Morris 47 because they
don’t play the course much anymore but um 47. um
so it’s not like people are going to be ripping this thing apart I’m the
majority of the field played with hickories and it didn’t get anywhere near it really it’s going to be you
think it’ll it’ll remain intact after that after the week a little bit I’d like how do you know that would be the
most legendary thing ever if someone break that well um again spoiler alert for later in the pot the uh former
professional as a shot 44 but with modern equipment yeah so well I just don’t think that counts
okay so that was um that was interesting but then you come to the card and it’s 3
800 yards you know minus the yard and the first hole is the thing on these
cards with feet and inches yes that’s how far along the hole is 517 inches one
foot nine inches what yeah it measures it two inches that feels like regression
in the game you think we should still measure we need to put this picture up on our website yeah like we’ve now dialed it back to
round these distances off yeah we’ve got trackman and GC quad shot link yeah but
we’ve now we’re now measuring we’ve actually rounded up together so that’s really cool Bernard Langer thing that’s
really good where are you measuring from the front of the plane yeah he’s like from the sprinkler yeah frontal back yeah awesome so the first two are are
Mighty long aren’t they really they’re two I mean obviously the
the second hole is the oldest hole in Championship golf the 17th that prestook which is the album I think it’s the
oldest um remaining golf hole in golf okay
I think so it’s even better than this side yeah so it’s like the oldest standing hole I believe so
um because it was that the second hole of the 12-hole course is the currently the 17th hole at Prestwick it’s
identical there’s nothing that’s changed yeah so you literally go from the same team box on two everything so how do you get to the this is going to be really
hard but we should add that we’re going to post a film which will hopefully bring a lot of this to life if you haven’t played Prestwick but how do you
get out to the do you play to the what would be the 16th Green from yeah from
basically the can which is the corner of the golf course okay uh where the where the monument is that says the first
which is just when you drive in so it’s not just a club it’s like right by the gates yeah it’s right in the corner there so you kind of playing practice
facility like a chipping green or something like that and that’s 580 yards with hickories yeah and young Tommy
Morris spoiler alert got an eagle yeah like a three
exist but got a three on this 578 yard
hole wait like literally the most you can get out of a hickory is like 200 tops well when we did that pod with Dan
Davis I mean he they it would clip they all kind of categorize the best shot to the
open didn’t they and you know the best was the was was the young Tommy shot third shot into the first screen in 1864
whenever it was or waiting whenever he won it so but interestingly not only did he get that three on the first it didn’t
do the same round no it’s not in the same round it was in a different open but he’s also had the first ever recorded hole in one which is
on the eighth and when we got to the eighth hole you stood on the Tee Box for the eighth you can’t see the green it’s
only a part it’s a par three 168 yards but it’s kind of just over a June and the green runs away from you
and David the pro turns and says oh yeah this is the first ever recorded hole in one it’s a young Tommy Carson you can’t
even hold the green as a hickorys I took a three iron no way it probably had a loft of like I don’t
know like a six iron now um if I took a three iron and I think all of us taking three and
two irons into that and it’s just like the guy is like I you know you can only Akin it to like
tiger or or Jack like he must have been he was so head and shoulders above
everyone I don’t think this is History either kind of just making making kind of a big deal he was clearly just an
unbelievable Talent yeah like when you sit there and think 170 yards with a clique to a front to back screen over a
tune with a gutty ball I mean under the gun of the Open Championship we’re not talking about the ball I mean like the
thing with hickories we’re all playing with like pretty ones TV fives and um soft balls and then
sorry and then um yeah these guys are playing with
featheries this is before the gutty oh no it’s just the gutty just come in because he’s probably for a young kid
just came in because that’s why he was good gone across but yeah the gutty the feathery whatever they were playing with
yeah absurd stuff so yeah so talk me through just roughly how the course flows because I can’t imagine how they
where the 12 holes go there’s six of the six of the original Green site one of them doubles up where do the holes go
just give me like a real sort of quick potted history of how I get around you’re gonna have to have some knowledge of Prestwick just for me to talk through
this but basically the first hole runs down the coast and the whole line of the coast really from the coastal side back
up almost beyond the from 13th Green from the monument on the left and it goes you kind of play a three shot or
four shot it’s a bogey six a four shotter onto the green which is the current 16th green bordered by those
sleepers on the front yeah right side it’s kind of the back of the Cardinal is there because it kind of backs onto the
Cardinal that’s the third hole currently then you play the current 17th hole Yeah the second hole’s the current 17th got
that then you play the current second hole which is a path three so the third hole is the current second hole okay so
that’s an original series because I was talking with Sam Cooper is also there and if you’d have asked me to
guess which holes were original I would put my house on we talked about it I was like yeah I don’t think too isn’t original and I would have put myself in
the first Pure Gas of like yeah yeah but the first is not a hole they used to have a pitching putt there okay so
um wow so you play 17 and then two and those are holes and if you’ve played you can picture then you play three as it is
now exactly the same so two and then three so you’ve basically played three holes on the spin that really haven’t changed materially that’s the one with
the that is Cardinal that’s with them there’s been bunkering and stuff like the Cardinal that was kind of like an
island yeah that whole thing was like waist area but yeah then you play but three is so that’s the fourth yeah and
you’re playing to the original Green so you’ve got to go over both of those bunkers where then the Fairway will run
falls into the grumpy drive so uh simplified your choice with your second shot I imagine it didn’t because the the
the ninth hole of the 12-hole course has got a green in the middle of that
cardinal no way bunker setup yeah so I couldn’t get over so I’ve hit a crappy drive with
my with my taking back an excuse me with my wood what were we saying about
this earlier or was it extreme ownership extreme ownership yeah I I hit a crappy drive
with my wood correct but I didn’t then I couldn’t I mean if I’d have laid up I’d have been laying up 60 yards you know what I mean yeah but to go over those
double set of bunkers out of it like needed to hit like 190. so the we we all had Marshalls with us right because it’s
so dangerous they gave Marshals to every group and there’s Marshalls on the dunes and it’s all we’ll talk about this in a moment but
the Marshall was also a caddy at Prestwick so he just basically carried for like acted like a full caddy on the way around and he said look you’re not
going to get over that so what I want you to do is I want you to take your your mashy or your your deep face mashics I had like two of them and he’s
like I want you to play to the ninth grade in the middle so it’s basically playing to the ninth grade which then
gives you quite a severe Loft yeah for the third shot then so then I’m trying to hit like another one of those onto
that um onto the green down there but you’re saying those big those bunkers have been kind of built up over the time yeah
because they are just like with the Hickory Club they are absurdly penal
Hazard those things yeah and they’re if you went in those bunkers like you’re you’re pretty much in Pocket well another thing with with the Hickory is I
mean I’m not a good Hickory player but like bounce is a relatively new thing with a wedge so if you go into
these bunkers you’ve basically got zero bounds you’ve got to clean them yeah
you’ve got to clean it but you can’t get it thin so it’s like if you get even remotely thin you’re 30 yards down there
so like I mean bunkers were just like horrendous um yeah two or three shots penalty yeah
so you laid up onto this little like an indoor Island between the two so I managed to do that go over the first bunker before the second bunker and then
um you play to that um the current third green okay so then four you don’t play or what
would be your fifth you don’t play that then it takes you off elsewhere then so five five is a long time really long par
it’s like a bogey five um yeah there’s no par on this card can we stop saying Parts it’s really hard
it’s like a bogey five and that plays like the current uh 13th hole that long Par Four it’s a crazy green with like a
half pipey entrance and so you play five and then six that’s for the half pipes this is where it gets where it gets
really interesting because I’ll I’ll Ken talks about this later in the podcast
six when you play six you cross the fifth hole
the 11th hole the first hole the tenthal the ninth
hole the seventh hole and the third hole to play the sixth you cross all those holes to play basically
with the course but you do it in a way the Prestwick doesn’t play so in
presswick there are no there is only one shot that plays directly away from the water
that’s the current fifth the par three the Alps over the big uh over the big hill you mean sixth
on the current course yeah I’m the 18-hole course oh yeah
there’s only one that’s the only one that goes directly away from water so it’s really it’s not really a Direction
they play now the sixth hole goes yeah goes completely across the whole width of the
course in that direction and you play to a double green with what is now the second yeah it’s really
difficult to explain but there’s basically an insane amount of crisscrossing that happens here yeah we
can see why they’ve given you Marshalls yeah there was like you’d get killed yeah there was a little Zone in the middle there was being affectionately
described as The Killing Zone because they were it’s it’s a little Fair way that I think three holes play into and
um yeah it’s quite it was quite interesting but what because of health and safety and all the
things that they’ve got to do now they’ve put a hell of a lot of effort into making sure that’s safe for everyone to play so where they skipped
around it in like an hour when you’ve got 25 30 people on the golf
course it is you do have to wait because you’re waiting for people to play different holes and the marshals were
brilliant they were they all had these um LED lights they’re like torches they’d shine your
direction because they they thought about having Flags but if they wave green flags that could be in any number
of people yeah so it’s like oh we’ve all got the green light let’s go drag to a bull yeah it will go we’ll all hit
um so they had these like LED torches that’s amazing too like there’s no stone left I mean issuing you with a hard hat
it was difficult to to make any safer the bottom of the card it says in the case of a stymie this card is six inches
deep now I never got to the bottom of this I’m sure I I still don’t think I know what it is
because I thought Siamese were just stymies it’s a wonderful tradition but I’m assuming
you get to move at six inches presume so
yeah that’s there’s just a lot of thought I think that’s why I mentioned it
um what did you get in terms of the Wicker Basket so obviously the wicker baskets
that I’ve seen these like nice Brown baskets on the pins typically associated
with Marion but Marion were not the innovators on this yeah well I’ll tell you what actually um I actually filmed the talk beforehand
that Ken gave um to all of us in that room and he talked a little bit about it so if I cut
to it now then he’ll give a better explanation than I will next time another thing just to highlight before I
finish is that um everyone knows Marion is famous for its
basket flagpoles but actually we were using baskets long
before Marion where in fact the the architect who designed
Marion Mr Wilson came over to the UK for ideas before they were moving to the
east coast East course um in 1912. and he saw baskets here and
I think he saw Baskets at another club as well so we thought it’d be quite nice to recreate her basket Flags again so we’ve
done that too so there we go it was that it was just something they did I haven’t listened to
the answer because you just said you’re gonna cut but I’m just gonna say fascinating yeah would that be a fair
reaction yeah it would it was better that’s amazing yeah it was they just didn’t never knew that so now we’ve got
through like a fairly complicated run through of the course what would you read on
the pla like how are the holes played versus the context of I’d say old time a fairly
primitive form of the game with Hickory equipment where you know I mean the average golfer
probably played pretty recreationally not that often you know like I I’d say old Tom was fairly sadistic really
um I think I think you know you’re just being fired from Saint Andrews your daddy’s falling
out with Aunt Robinson he came across to the West Coast oh yeah okay I’ll make a golf course I’ll show them
because I mean it sounds really difficult the second hole
um which is now the current 17th I mean by modern standards it’s absolutely absurdly difficult it’s like a what’s it
play off here 385 yards you play into a valley that’s sort of
surrounded by sand dunes it’s basically an Amphitheater or Sam Dunes because then you play over the
amphitheater over a huge June and yeah massive sneaky bunker that you don’t
know is there unless you’ve seen it and yeah okay it might be in a flat spot and you might think yeah that’s where I’ll
put a green but like the the fact that they
built that course the way it was and you know they weren’t using arguably the course that I played would have been in
far greater condition than it ever would have been doing an open yeah because we’ve got modern green keeping there’s
some level of rock management this thing would have been wild yeah I mean when old Tom laid out it was very little in
terms of you know cutting equipment you know our architecture as a topic isn’t
is not really accepted until 1900 anyways it’s like you know just really laying out green
sites there’s clearly some thought and I know Roger mcstraverick has always is a big proponent with with old tommen
saying you know he wasn’t just a Stomp and stick guy just sticking out 9 or 12 or 18 greens like there was thought to
the drama but did you get any sort of real feeling of that or did it feel like you know only playing it the once and it
being this media day and seeing it was it quite hard to see through that and try and get a picture of how he laid it
out but if you if you look at the picture of how the course is laid out there would have been far easier ways
for him to use those green sites yeah well not sadistic but in a less
architecturally interesting fashion yeah there would have been easier ways to get people around the course yeah and he’s
he’s decided okay if we play to here um instead of going to that green which
I can see from here that’s fine what we’ll do actually is go over that tune and then go to that green so in that respect
he may have gone out and just found 12 greensides but he still had to decide
which t-box went to which green which I suppose
there is I don’t know something like 18 factorial ways you could have done that and he
chose the way that he did and it became the course it was so to say that it was
1200 literally just 12 factorial my apologies but to say it was like
um Stomp and stick is no no no I mean this feels like a Geo into some sort of
nebulous Naval gazing exercise here thinking about old Tom but you can’t help but wonder if
being around Saint Andrews for so long must have felt like you’re a fairly
pedestrian layout maybe not quite I mean this this is quite basic up and down he’s probably from saying he smiles
isn’t it because Saint Andrews you basically work away for like uh eight holes you do a little bit of back and
forth for a little bit and then you work your way back so it kind of makes sense you go to there then you keep walking forward then you keep walking forward
and you keep walking forward and that’s as far away everything’s crisscrossing isn’t it yes totally it’s not out and
back I don’t think there’s a single hole on this course that goes in the same
direction as the one before the current routing is way more out and back at Prestwick yeah what you’ve got on that
card there yeah but yeah definitely so yeah he may have been
um influenced by you know that the way that the old course was laid out but it’s certainly like
it doesn’t reflect it in a way of like he took inspiration from it I said I didn’t think anyway but
um were there any kind of like talks or anything any sort of keen sort of Snippets or insights around that I know
Martini but was there was there any kind of real Intel around further until that you’ve not shared
about the course not in terms of how they’ve restored it I’m thinking more about the
the layout of it or anything like that no not really I mean um what was nice is
um Mungo Park was there which was Willie Park not the guy that won in like the
guy that won Russell brune like 1892 no no no no no uh his his namesake uh who
was the great grandson of Willie Park Senior wow so that’s one of the Open
Championship when it first opened so he was there and he said a few words which was which was very lovely and he very
very knowledgeable about he’s done a lot of research into his family and um he’s a clubhouse architect
the designs golf club houses here you know he was there I did not know that yeah I think he I think he might live
down near Cleve Hill fairly sure of that I might be wrong I don’t know his address nor would I
share it but I I I I’d say you spent some time at cleop Hill but no that that is I mean that’s great that must I mean
that’s crazy imagine that yeah great did he play or is he a golfer or he did play
yeah yeah he played um well I didn’t play with him um what an honor but yeah that it was
it was an experience that you know up there with the old course in Reverse is just something that
you know there are there are certain things in life that if
you wait long enough and try hard enough or willing to pay enough money you can you can achieve you know if you if you ballot every time
you have the opportunity to buy for the old course at some point you’ll get to play it or if you if you wait and queue up you get the opportunity to pay it and
this has only been around for a few days yeah this is one of those things lucky boy to have got to go I just feel honestly I’m so thankful I couldn’t I
couldn’t stop smiling and I couldn’t stop saying thank you to like everybody I was like I felt so honored to be there
and I just like I think thank you thank you like I was such a nerd oh thank you
so much it’s amazing you know um and it’s one of those things that I mean
I did ask Ken and Dave whether it’s something that they will think about doing in the future I’ll um I’ll leave
you guys to listen to that afterwards I hope they do um sometimes sometimes like the less is
more though isn’t it yeah like you know you’ve done it I’ve not and I sit here and think well you know it’s quite nice
to live it vicariously through you almost I think um yeah I think in some ways it looks like
everything that you you know every I can only judge this based on the assets I’m looking at and you know you talking
about it but a lot of places that try to pull something like that off it could feel a bit Kitsch or a bit contrived and
it sounds like the total opposite sounds like just a really well-run event like it was really authentic in a lot of
respects yeah I think they you know I think I think they could have got it wrong yeah I think they really killed someone
well it’s still ongoing problem um they still got another sort of 10 days of it but um
you know they could have they could have done a a half-assed job of it
um and it wouldn’t have been wrong it still wouldn’t have been wrong but it just wouldn’t no but it looks so classy like
it looks so impressive all the assets like you say you’re hearing you talk about it the thought that the you know
you know the choreography around that day just sounds brilliant um obviously there have been quite a few
other notables there in terms of media day um yeah there’s a few YouTubers there
some Peter Finch was there I saw he won he won so he’s I’ve seen he’s been
tuning up a little bit with his Hickory he’s out in Glenn Eagles on a recent video so he he won the gross today he
I well they didn’t actually say whether it was grow I mean obviously he hasn’t got handicapped professional
so I don’t know whether he um I mean what if you’re gross or net I don’t really know but yeah he he took
the prize our friend Sam Cooper got a bit of cut glass for a bit well nice out
of two nice I always had a little Tumblr that was good so what was the winning score then he put that on his own um social media
so that’s definitely so he’s going Toe to Toe with young Tommy’s young Tommy’s record well
and I’m not telling you if he’s gone to Toyota with rank somebody’s record I’m just saying that he won the prize on the day to the with hit Cruise
he did not play with hickories but he won first prize he shot the lower score on the day
remarkable I played in a shirt and tie
no I actually can’t they can’t this pod can’t descend into chaos here I actually think that um if you play golf post
lunch I’ve just it was actually Martin Ebert that convinced me to keep my shirt in time because we’d gone in for lunch
and he’s like Harley keep your shirt in Time come on and I was wearing plus fours anyway and he’s like keep your shirt and tie on
though I did I had a navy blue tie navy blue is
that right okay um but uh I wasn’t wearing black toe I think Buddy
um but um I didn’t actually I mean I was I don’t know whether I was crap because Hickory is a clap crap because of the
shirt and tie but I don’t feel like it inhibited me too much I actually think that anytime you play golf post lunch it
should be with your full full punch as well though I had a lunch say yeah that was like proper set down absolutely yeah
I bet that was amazing yeah it’s brilliant and they said best in the business they serve so whatever drink you buy then go back to an 1860s menu
raw Partridge and stuff like that um but like in in the smoking room in uh
in Prestwick I thought it just because I ordered a beer but like all the drinks are in like metal tankers as well yeah
they do that anyway because I yeah because I ordered a beer before lunch and then he had lunch and I played then
I had to drive home so I had a coke before I drove home I thought that’d come in a glass but no no
it’s so good and that mine had like embossed on it like Prestwick 1923. yeah and it’s like really cool so battered up
and like sort of misshapen from obviously all the love it’s had over the last 99 years
unbelievable well I’m very jealous sounds like it’s been a brilliant brilliant day yeah I
mean I do understand how lucky I was and I I
also understand that the 99.99 of people that listen to this
podcast are not going to have the opportunity that I have and I hope that the the video that comes
out it enables you to experience it a little bit because
it’s just amazing I wish more people were able to to play this but just because of the nature of it it’s only
there for like 10 more days it’s just not going to be able to so um
you know if you get the opportunity to go I know I’ve looked on Golf Club Atlas recently and a lot
that’s a lot of those guys are just driving up to to walk it and just to see it I know Tom doake was over recently he
walked it just before it opened yeah 100 well you know like if you couldn’t get on on the course like 100 yeah there
were some people walking it maybe just stand in the middle of the Kill Zone just yeah and there were some people walking it um just before we we teed off
they just come to see it um uh because it’s hopefully not a once in
a lifetime opportunity but it’s you know it’s it’s once every the last time it’s played was like 2005 so yeah I’m in the
next sensible time to do it would be like 2060 wouldn’t it yeah yeah like 200 years on that would be a sense for 20 50
the the 175th or something like that yeah maybe but yeah what were they 1857
I think something like that 1851 but yeah so what we’re going to do now
is and I apologize for
with all these things we just get excited about it and what we’re going to do now is we’re going to roll into the
podcast with with Ken and Dave and we sat down with them for about 25 minutes I just discussed what they’d done at
presswick uh so here we go so we’re sat here in Prestwick in this in the card room is
that where we are the card room of Prestwick that’s right overlooking the the 12-hole course first of all guys
Dave and Ken congratulations on what you’ve managed to achieve uh in this
150th open year in reincarnating the the 12th the 12th hole routing here at
Prestwick first of all Ken how did that come about what what was he trying to
achieve when you when you brought back the 12-hole routine well it was it was really just the fact that this year was
the 150th Open championship being played um
we enjoy having a party here and celebrating things we didn’t want to interview with the
rnas celebrations of 150th open which were taking place in July
the first open was played in the 17th of October 1860 so we thought October would
be a good time for us to have our celebration to try and tie in with with
the date of that first open and the first open was played over a 12-0 course
almost 3 800 yards um so we thought we will try and
recreate that course it had been done before perhaps not
um as well it’s quite rudimentary in the past yeah just limitations of
um green keeping equipment and and and labor and so it’s sort of kind of about
three or four weeks before apparently they would start cutting grass whereas this time we actually had time
to plan and research and do that and then Dave and his team go on and uh
did their magic they managed to implement is this like the third or fourth time that that this 12-hour
routine has been brought back no I I think it’d been done a few times in the past
um the last time I believe was about 2005. when we did it we certainly did it in
2001 which was the club’s 150th anniversary um and then it was done a few years
after that it had been done before then as well but as I say it was really just
a question perhaps someone went out with her and would cut some greens and
you know you might have to go through some fairly heavy jungle together yeah and Dave you’re fairly
fairly new to the club and you you arrive maybe a year and a half ago and get given this project was that fairly
daunting or just quite exciting I I feel it was quite exciting um I was looking forward to the to the
journey ahead and to see how it’s How It panned out um as a finished product are you happy with it absolutely was it
more intensive than you thought or was it or did it pretty much live up to what you thought was going to be to try and
get that 12 holes back I think um certain areas like the first and the 12th Fairway that was under very heavy
rough at the time yeah there’s something about water or something there’s that did I hear that that’s it’s usually underwater yeah it’s it’s an area of the
course known as the goose Dobbs which was almost a Goose Pond and that area
does often flood over the winter we actually have a couple of subterranean
pumps that pump water will be um so that was always a potential
challenge if we’d had a really prolonged spell of heavy rain forehand but you know Dave needs if it
taken emergency measures had the pumps running just people if the water level as low as possible
um so that so that’s fine and that it was an area of rough it was managed rough there in the goose
dubs but we actually cut that back down to create Fairway yeah I think he did a really good job of that yeah we did a
lot a lot a lot of cuts and collect on there and as we gradually got the heights of cuts down on it we started to
use a semi-ruff mower um it was eventually cut with a cylinder mower we’d also done some top dressing
to try and smooth the surface because that’s it feels like a different sort of grass around that area as well I imagine it’s a bit more
Marshall and grass than the the Fescue you’ve got a lot of the course absolutely yeah there’s a there’s there’s um some of the coarser grasses
like um Yorkshire fog and ryegrass in in that wetter area of the link so it was
quite challenging so I mean that whole section there that first hole
it’s kind of you’ve got a lot of that that’s fair weather exists or already you’ve had to sort of bring back that
little bit at the bottom and there’s obviously a green there as well that that you’ve had to put there with near
the tee off of the first which is the green for the 12th the 12th the 12th the green I mean that was an area which is
almost a sort of small practice ground yeah so we had to try and keep people off that but
um so how many greens did you have to bring back we had to bring back um
we use six of the original greens were still in play for seven of the original holes yeah so there was uh five greens
that we had to try and recover or create and there’s some very um interesting ones I think the one that’s in in
between the cardinal bunkers uh was quite an interesting grain
placement that one I’m sure when Tom was putting that in the ground he was giggling to himself because that was a
there were some quite tricky greens there weren’t there well that that one originally um the Cardinal bunker
we now have three bunkers that create the Cardinal bunker system as it were but originally that was just all sand
and you had an island of grass which was the green
um there so um yeah no that’s that’s a good haul it’s a good hole so other problems came
or what problems or what other things came up when you were trying to to put this back together there were I think
the I think the area which is the seventh green um I remember doing a course walk with
Ken and 150 of committee and thinking gosh this is really really heavy here yeah
um lots of coarse grasses Yorkshire fog rye grass um I’m thinking how we’re going to make
a green here so I figured the best way was to take a surf quarter to it
um strip an area off the size of a green and use some Turf from from our driving
range the the soil wasn’t modified at all it was just taking the coarser grasses off and put in some more finer
grasses on there that would be suitable for putting for the uh putting on for the for the for the composition so how
long are you considering keeping this 12-hole rooting in in play
a celebrations last for a fortnight and how long are we building this how
long have you when will you start we’ve been working on this over a year yes wow I think you know the the first
first cutting of the rough to create the first and the 12th Fairway was well about this time last year
that’s right yeah yeah I mean that’s a lot of effort for two weeks isn’t it
it’s worth it you’ve just played it it’s great fun I mean what was interesting I thought when
we were out there played it a few times before um and you can be you can be on bits of
that golf course and just not recognize where you are because of the way the routing is compared to the real routine
I mean six um I think you came up with a wonderful term the Kill Zone which was six is you
get quite a few Crossing holes across that little section there don’t you I think it’s it’s the second hole the
sixth Hole uh well the sixth hole interacts with the first the 5th the 12th second the ninth
possibly the 10th the seventh the fourth
um and then you get to the green Sunset and it’s a it’s a um a shared green as well isn’t it so it’s a double green so
you’ve got quite a lot going on there and I think as you cross those little sections then you go through the
Duneland I did find it quite difficult to kind of appreciate where I was compared to the
original Roofing I thought that was really really interesting that maybe what that
may be how Don Morris ended up designing the course like that he maybe got lost
halfway around which is why it goes back and forward because I mean when when he was
originally walking around the land you know the fairways wouldn’t be cut or
anything like that he would just be walking over a dune system with probably covered in Madame grass
and long grasses
that have been sheep and cattle grazing on it so they might have kept the grasses down but you know there was no
definition there I mean it’s quite a testament to oh Tom having the eye to actually
recognize put a hole in there that would be a good place for a green yeah that’ll give them
a challenge and Dave having worked on the original routing and seeing what old Tom was
trying to achieve and of course he laid out did it did it perhaps
Shine A different light on him in your eyes on you know how his genius in what
he was able to see and because I mean I walked around there and some of those green sites didn’t leap out at me I mean
they’re there now and I can see now you’ve mowed them but did you did it alter your perceptions of him when you
were doing all this work definitely and I’ve found that when I’ve walked it on my own in the evenings I can stand back
and appreciate his work it’s fantastic
there was a lot of um Marshals there today um are these are the marshals first of
all why are they there who are they what what are they there to facilitate
well um the Marshals are there to try and ensure that the golfers negotiate a safe
round of golf um spoke a few moments ago about the sixth
hole for example and the interaction with lots of other holes
um we really need to control play you mentioned the cut kit The Killing
Zone and on the the second Fairway which is the on the 18 hole courses it’s seven
early so there are 40 shots all Landing about the same point
and two of the t-shirts are blind so if everyone was heading into that
area at the same time it’d really be quite dangerous well just sorry to interrupt what would have happened in
Old Tom’s day would they just have hit or would there have been a system of well the very first open there was only
eight golfers took part so there was um four I think there would have been
some form of Marshals whether they had Flags or the lake there is a sign or a
suggestion up in the wall in the Smoke room next door from a member that
suggesting that um no group should start until the previous group have finished
the round and gone to bed and so obviously then even recognized
probably 200 of course anyone times but you know so we’ve got the marshals
we’ve got Marshall walking with each game a walking Marshal we’ve got six uh
Marshals dotted around the course here I suppose they’re The Playmakers in that they control the flow of play
over the course they’re all they’ve all got walkie-talkies so they communicate with each other
um a new innovation this year whereas in the past we’ve used Flags
um they’ve got LED torches which I thought would work really really well so
you get a green light when it’s safe for your group to play Red Light if you have to hold hold on
um and it gets rid of the challenge of the flight if they wave a green flag three different groups might see it we
think it’s it’s directed at them so the Torches you can actually point at the grip and um quite surprised how well
that’s worked so that’s been good and
how many opens did you have with the 12 whole routing Oh no you’re asking
um because at some point you had opens with the 18 hole routine didn’t you the
1882 was when we went to the 18th hole course so the first 11 opens
were for the championship Bill 1860 to 1870. there was a one-year Gap when we were
trying to work out what to do um try and involve other clubs 1872
so there was probably about another
708 might not even remember in fact it wouldn’t even be in as many as that
so a good view though yeah yeah and they would have had quite a lot of spectators
in the early days yeah there would be a lot of Spectators but not by modern
standards yeah you know you might be talking hundreds yeah um as opposed to thousands I mean the
last time the open was plated in 1925 when there was crowd trouble okay it was
probably only about 15 or 17 000. there’s still a lot though which a lot of people but by modern standards is
there’s nothing yeah yeah but it’s still a lot of people on that parceland it’s quite easy to see I think
having played that today has been out there and thinking about
what it would have been like then and with Spectators that it’s quite understandable
that you would have asked not to have it again because it’s quite intense there’s
not really much space to move around and certainly before you move to the 18 hole routing it would have been fairly
packed on there wouldn’t it yeah I mean it’s I don’t think there was ever any real
issue on the 12-hole course and the game had devolved in such a way
that the 12 hole Links of 3 800 yards or so
just didn’t cut it um and it had become more traditional to
have an 18 hole golf course and as the club had bought or at least additional
Parcels of land they were in the position that they could extend the golf course and do it that way
um but you know I think I think the 12-hole course did have quite a fight finite
life cycle is that where yeah it kind of just outgrew itself in a way yeah the
course record by young Tom when he won the open in
1870 shot 47. around the 12 hole course and that I
think for the time that was the record it wasn’t it wasn’t beaten
um in the open our old Pro Frank Rainey in in an event that shoot 44 when we
recreated it a number of years ago speak that was with modern equipment yeah
but 47 was the record by young Tom including his famous three at the first
hole Yeah and I’ve played that and I think I shot a seven and was fairly happy on that pretty good stuff we
played with hickories today I think I think most of the field played with hickories today and it’s a different Beast playing playing that with
hickories yeah I mean I think fine in some ways because it’s it’s window when the wind blows if you play with
hickories you can kind of just keep it lower it kind of takes out the wind a little bit more than modern clubs but
you must have had different hickories from me today oh no mine don’t go off the ground so I’m absolutely fine have
you had a chance to play it Dave I haven’t no no I’m hoping to do so over the next couple of weeks oh okay you um
you got a date in the diary to go out and play it not yet no well you want to be leaning on Ken you want to get
something sorted here but it’s not lacking encouragement
um do you think in the next two weeks before uh this all winds down do you think that chord is going to go
we are having a member’s event this weekend
and members have the option playing either with hickeries or with modern
equipment um I think there’s some of her younger low handicapped golfers who hit
the ball out of sight hmm they get a good run at it I think I
think they could do that I think it’s gonna have an asterisk thing that’s one under fours yeah and you know
there are a number of holes if you’re using modern equipment put your effectively part of these yeah
there’s a um because we did the shotgun start I kind of lose my bearings a
little bit on the holes but there’s a 200 and some like 105 yard Par Four yeah that’s yeah that’s the kind of the ten
the tenth hole which brings you up to our normal 15th green um so that you know that’s easily
reachable yeah for those guys I mean it is a powerful with hickories though that’s it was yeah I mean the thing was
Paul wasn’t a concept back in those days you just tried to take as few shots as
you yeah you could um and then Boogie came in as I suppose
it’s a boogie four you know you’d expected the club golfer to do it in four shots
um but young Lads will they’ll be able to hit that yeah no I don’t I don’t think that
counts I think they must they’ve got to have an Asterix there unless it’s done with hickories I think that’s it’s because it’s it’s amazing to to
play that today and see I mean it’s just so hard to hit those clubs and and the fact that he could go
around it must truly have been a truly outstanding golfer and the whole
family and we’ve had um Mungo Park here today yep gave a little
give a few words before we went out which is let’s get this one right Willie Park seniors great grandson yeah and
that’s only one great I thought there was two games but I got it though wrong yeah well he corrected you so yeah
um how’s that been having him here with the history and all the things that’s been wonderful I mean mungo’s been here
few times in the past a number of years ago the RNA were doing
a number of promotional films about the open so Bongo is here Sheila Walker who’s the
Great need to watch how many greats again something granddaughter of Tom Morris of
course yeah of course yeah
um and so someone who’s been here a few times and I just thought
what a wonderful opportunity to invite him up today you know because he has a keen interest
in the history of golf both of his eminent ancestor but other golfers as
well and golf in musselbrook which is where Willy Park hailed from well his namesake won an open as well Mungo park
that’s right which would have been his what great great uncle or something yeah
um yeah that was really interesting I mean to have I suppose they went against the grain a bit when When Willy Park won
here because obviously he was set up by press work with old Tom I think everyone expected Morris to win yeah you know he
knew every blade of grass in the golf course he’d laid it out and yeah it
might have been a bit of a slap in the face for the gentle people of Prestwick and possibly
Saint Andrews as well you know musselburgh was a mining Community yeah they might have looked down their nose a
way but at the the folks from the East so for someone to come and sort of win
this new competition who knows but honor was restored the
following year but it’s it’s a tremendous thing that you guys have done just just bringing it back to the economy a little bit Dave what um
what bit are you most proud of out there that you’ve managed to achieve that you looked at and thought this is going to be really difficult
I think the the first and the 12th hole um really plays that that’s that’s that’s in play and it is the way it is
um and also I think the seventh of the area that I spoke about before because that was a little bit a little bit wet
in spots um but it’s really really nice to to see the baskets open [Music] um when you think about the rough management you’ve had to do
um are you going to try are you going to now sort of manage that a little bit lower and keep it keep it shorter or
you’re just going to let that go back once the the 12 of course is gone we spoke about this recently and I think it
would be nice to to maintain some of the areas that were quite heavy yeah and the first 12 Fairway
um because it would be nice if if we ever had had to do this again
um to be able to turn it round then yeah in one or two weeks rather than a full 12 months I think that would be really
really good to do so if you like I suppose if you the more you let it go even if you you’re going to want wait
five years ten years before you do it again you just it’s going to take longer and longer and longer isn’t it so if you
if you can maintain it I suppose that would be better for you I think the greens that were the greens that were cut out of Fairways they’re very very
good botanically they’re all fine Fescue grasses and it’s it’s really really easy just to
take just take the height to cut down a little a little bit of top dressing in the lead up to to any event we host in
the future um yes is that the benefit of having like a predominantly Fescue base absolutely absolutely what is it that
allows you to be able to because I think a lot of a lot of our lessons do like this sort of part of it what is it that
allows you to do that with Fescue that doesn’t allow you with other grasses then you can just
why is it so sought after I mean fescue’s got such a nice fine Leaf you could mow that at a higher high to cut
the ball just rolls across it really really well um nice and true and nice and firm
surface yeah and keep them more sustainable I suppose absolutely but what I mean what I think you’ve
achieved here over this well it’s the start of the celebrations now and what you’re going to do over the
next two weeks is is absolutely fabulous and it’s such a honor that I’m able to come up here and play this 12-hour
course and speak to you chaps um what have you got for the next two weeks before you wrap it up and and
you’re done with that well tomorrow we have got an event we’ve invited the captains of all the clubs or courses
that have hosted the open in the past not just the ones that are in the current wrote about all the clubs have
hosted the open um so we’re having a days golf with them tomorrow two rounds nice lunch uh a
dinner in the evening um then Friday Saturday Sunday we have
an event for the members the Warren trophy we do have the trophy and the last time it was in grave was 2005.
um there’s I think there’s only a couple of names on it because it was only played for a couple of times so it’s been sitting waiting
so we’re going to play for that over the weekend what’s the format of that that’s just it’s just going to be a middle
round and they they’ll get two-thirds of their handicap in the handicap index we
haven’t had it sloped or frustrated yet so you can’t put on whs no no no so it’s
non-qualifying um and then on Monday the 17th of
October the anniversary of that the first open we are having a triangular
match the RNA The Honorable company of Edinburgh golfers and Prestwick they
were the three clubs that paid for the Claret jug um so it seemed quite appropriate to
have an event including those three clubs again a couple of rounds and a
nice dinner in the evening um Tuesday Wednesday we have made
the course open to visitors to come and play a couple of rounds
lunch um access to
archive and to a tour of the the clubhouse I mean that’s explaining the
history of the club that’s amazing on its own because I’ve seen some of your archive stuff and it’s not your archive
is more uh document based yeah and I mean just just to give it the listeners
a bit of a taste what type of things have we got in the archive well we’ve got we’ve got some open score cards
1864 winning scorecard Tom Morris and then all the scorecards from 1865 66
we don’t have 67 for some strange reason 68. it was Tommy winning his first open
Age 17. 69 he’s first hole in one in the open and that he I mean I played that today
he had no right even getting the ball in the green let alone getting the ball in the hole that’s a really tricky part through that isn’t it it’s a tricky Hall
um so you know we’ve got a lot of stuff like that from the open we’ve got the invoice for the original challenge belt
uh for the planet jug that we can show people we we’ve got our minute book
which before the second open the extract that says henceforth the event will be
open to all the world and rather than just being an invitation event for the Caddy’s team yeah to play in
um so yeah we’ve I think we’ve got a variety of stuff that we can show people oh I think what you’ve done is
absolutely fabulous and I can’t I can’t commend you guys highly enough for what you’ve managed to achieve out
there and Dave the work you’ve done uh in making that course play as well as it
did today was is exemplary so um you must you should be very very proud of yourselves what what you’ve done out
there is brilliant thank you thank you very much chance thank you