159 – Clyde Johnson: When Shaping meets Architecture

are you looking at
Orange like you’re a bit offended by the orange microphone I prefer blue we don’t have I don’t I don’t think we have a
blue one I guess I’ve Clyde welcome to the podcast we are in a pretty close Contender for a
good location for a pod here looking over the 18th green and the snooker table can’t go wrong we were
talking about this before we got going snooker tables and golf clubs there is a place for them isn’t that you’re a bit
of a snooker Fiend I sense you spot the tables in your eyes you were unwrapping the snooker the The Velvet off the
snooker table before we’d even got through the room yeah it’s been a long it’s been a long time since I played but I do enjoy the odd frame everything so
it was good to who so you two just just went to war what was that it was at least a 20 point difference I think at
least you’ll say this game was on point to be fair and I had a couple of I’ve got that black in off the Kush that was
that was quite tired of the point where you say Kush now have we played that much snooker we can
see yeah just rolling Back The Years here um so we’ve played more town today 16 holes of more time got absolutely hosed
on I think today and you’ve been obviously working we should say Clyde this is a day where you realize how much
you love the game when you can get some enjoyment out of being outside in what is the most miserable day of the year I think
no not for you well there’s no chance I’d be playing out there we’re lucky we’re looking the last three days we’ve
got most of the work done because the the soil’s out there well especially on the I guess what you call a bug which is the
middle part of the course are pretty nasty even even in dry times last year I was shaping away you get one chance to
build the bunker because the machines sunk a foot two foot just as you just as you sat on top of the work area don’t
get it right you’ve yeah you pretty much you don’t you can’t really go back in there because you know you will find like when we’re building
or extending a bunker uh yesterday on the left of the third hole you know this the Old Clay drain pipes that they’re
putting whenever they’re putting them in two and a half feet deep that was like six inches under the surface which gives you an idea of how much the ground and
is this the only year you want to be doing this stuff would you do it uh I mean because there’s a Cold Spring and like I don’t I might like all the time
for listeners to this part to get bored of it but Blackwell’s a good reference point doing work in Spring was tricky this year because we didn’t get the
growth until really late is that when you try and time it or I mean in an Ideal World you probably in the UK and
Ireland you’re probably thinking about working in the spring where it’s dry and then you’re re-turfing however you’re
doing seed or turf that’s the the start of summer hits uh a lot of that being said it’s not the ideal
not always either look from a construction point of view it works nicely but you know when you get to this time of year you kind of got the weather
the rain you can can set you back when you’re working on heavier so I was working like working in a lynx
environment you know you can kind of pretty much go whatever you’re forgiving so what’s the what’s the brief of the work here at Morton then so we’ve seen
quite a bit of obviously there’s some stuff happening behind the 18th green here we’re out we’re seeing some stuff
on you know three and four and dotted around what’s the what’s the brief of the work so it was the brief was really
uh I’m sure there was a brief as such but the the club the club’s girl so the Club
hosted the 1929 Ryder Cup uh so centenary’s uh approaching in a few
years time so they’re just looking really to polish up the golf course I was Alison McKenzie course originally uh
it’s evolved over the years through uh enforced boundary issues with the sale of SanMar golf club and meralton golf
club of four holes of sanma golf club and miralitan golf club on the boundary so the golf course has changed over the
years they’ve you know they’ve done some work over the last decade with Ken Moody a lot of good Tree Management work out
there and you know at this point we’re kind of just looking to really improve the details of the golf
course you know this this certainly restorative elements to that uh but yeah
this you know last year last year we worked on the fifth hole which is kind of like a reimagination of a hole it was once a
really hard dog leg uh around the cops of trees back in McKenzie’s day and up until about five
years ago uh but tree clearing and the addition of two holes on the inside of that uh built by Donna still in the late
1980s fifteen six hole kind of open different opportunity to rethink that hole so that was kind of like a
reimagination with some restorative elements you know so that one’s one
where rather than just restoring the McKenzie stuff that’s a case of saying well let’s try and make a really great
short for here that’s harmonious with what Mackenzie might have built if he didn’t have the boundary left of five yeah so we kind of we kind of restored
the original playing strategy you know especially for the weaker player you know kind of remove two bunkers on the
right so you can drive further to the right there and restore the the great expanse of sand or a slightly smaller version of the
great expenses and front right of the green and uh and a rear bunker uh so you know if you bail out to the right uh
you’ve got a tricky approaching but you know for the stronger player we opened up the line it was directed a whole
whole place about 300 yards on the straight line and set it was a great natural Bank it kind of Lent itself to
three new bunkers that kind of blend in visually put your bunker Behind the Green so is
that is that the the more fun part of the job when you can when you get a
brief like that where it’s like okay well let’s try and make something a bit different here is that where it gets the
creative juices flowing for you yeah it’s kind of it’s kind of difficult I was thinking about this earlier
you know I’m kind of fortunate I get to help out on some new build golf courses so when I get to consult places I’m not
as bored about putting my own mark on on places I can you know especially at historical golf club like this I I tend
to uh think more about you know how we can uh reinstate some of the older features or make more of them with the
existing Golf Course through simpler measures uh you know rather than rather than putting my own stamp on things but
you know you know there kind of was an opportunity there you know where we could be respectful to what was there
originally but you know give a little bit of extra excitement to sort of like
pick through here isn’t there because you know I feel like you know we’re sat in you know Mackenzie land really here
we’re sort of more Town didn’t realize how close that is to all Woodley by the way you know we’re kind of this was his
first solo design there’s the whole restoration thing you know I think we need to talk a little bit about you and your intro to golf and then obviously
the work that you do with you know new builds and work with Tom and your stuff in the UK
there’s there’s so much to go out here um just just on mortar and the stuff
around the McKenzie stuff how much do you read into you know his
work elsewhere and further outside of Leeds do you see a big difference there in sort of some of the later Mackenzie
stuff and the Really bold ambitious stuff out in maybe America and stuff or you know how would you kind of place
more time in sort of McKenzie’s repertoire so to speak yeah it’s kind of interesting because MacKenzie’s work you
can probably divide it into three maybe three categories I mean you know he came
along in the UK after Colt you know he was never going to be the big name uh
golf has already been relatively long established even in land so I’m not sure and you know budgets you know he kind of
you didn’t get great sights so I’m not really sure he was ever really allowed the creative freedom that he that he
wanted or that he certainly demonstrated when in his work in California yeah uh so you know and you know even some even
some of the funky stuff you can include at places like Heavenly down the road and uh you know SanMar as well locally
it’s also McKenzie you know I’m not sure some of his his funkier more artistic stuff was lasted as long as it might
have done uh you know and then you’ve got you’ve got the sand belt courses in Australia and uh tit rangi in New
Zealand where he kind of left left his ideal ideal or ideas uh
for the local Alex Russell in the case of Australia so that’s that work kind of that work
turned out really differently and then you know where you got to spend more time uh in America and you know where he
had had more money to spend more more artistic freedom because you know I’m not sure the the locals knew what golf
should be you know I think he really showed off his creative uh he’s creative strengths there but uh I
think of all of all the great early Architects or Golden Age Architects as we like to call them uh McKenzie
probably understood or at least demonstrated mostly ideals of the old course and I
think that kind of shows at places like Moor town to you know he’s pretty to a lesser extent you know Rory
Melbourne’s probably the the closest golf course I can think of playing like the old course anywhere in
the world but you know he’s just all Willie Moore town he’s just really
clever at using the slope the cant of the the land and just bunkering really efficiently to make the golf interesting
you know we’re looking 18 and that’s a pretty that’s a pretty good example you know the ground kind of tilts left to
right long brawny path up the hill and you know the front of the greens bunkered from left to right
across the angle you just play to the outside the Fairway get a good angle and opening yourself at the degree I think
with MacKenzie you got you know when think about like the spirits in Andrew’s book and he one of
his things is he felt like every golf hole should be able to play with a putter if that’s what you want to do which leads itself onto a fabulous
little story about here in more time where he built the par 3 here that was
the first holiday and they kind of went off to I’m sure you guys know these stuck this story better than I in fact I’ll probably leave it for you to tell
tell us about how he sort of came about getting the job here at Morton uh the the well the history is not that
fresh in my mind but did you brought the whole was the the first hole he built which is uh a par three which you know
people say is Loosely based on the Rodan hole at North Berwick the 15th hole uh uh you know it was it was it was quite
it was a relatively difficult or expensive piece of construction to bench the green into the hillside uh but you
know he kind of used that to sell his abilities uh and the idea of a golf course out
here to Future members and just just one hole Yeah on the back and then took then took not like sponsors from their
nominations from members to then go off and yeah I’m pretty sure I’m pretty sure that’s the story if I build nine or something but then
they ended up getting loads of people that were subscribing to it and then wanted then it was like well we’ve got enough money now for 18 so let’s let’s
do 18 and seemingly they had enough cash for a really good billiard room and some Exquisite good dark red leather
chairs which you know it was it was plentiful but it’s a great golf hole that tenth isn’t it even now I know you
said some of the stuff with the green may have changed over time but it’s a beautiful path three yeah yeah it’s a really fun really fun shop probably
probably suit to cut back into the slope more often than not but you know the green kind of angles from pyrite to the
left and really steeply from front to back at the same time so the green used to extend a little bit further out the
front but there’s so much elevation changing and so much tilt I’m not sure it would ever be feasible to put it back
about messing with Contours and I’m not sure we want to be doing that I’m not a victim of quicker greens and
that’s not sure when they were stimping at like six you could get away with loads more Contours because a lot of his
work on greens were really contoured weren’t they yeah yeah for sure but uh murtown The Greens at Merton tend to
feature more tilt than opposed to internal you know big world internal
Contours that you might find find elsewhere so we’re gonna hang on more time for for way too long because we
really want to dive into to your career as well but before we leave uh the idea of talking about I want you to talk
about my golf today Tom honestly what’s your favorite uh holes out there
and green sites favorite Hole uh I think the 18th is just a classes of I talked
through that before just a classic long Par Four uses the slope really well uh 15 not in its current state but
hopefully we’ll put something back to the original you know it’s like a boundary hole sort of yeah so it play it
plays up the plays up the boundary medium long path or tilts ground tilts
left to right boundary on the left turn originally there used to just be a string of free bunkers dangling across
the front of the green yeah uh with one with one on the left so and a couple of wings of green in behind the two bunkers
so you know such a simple and effective hole Fairway must have been eight yards wide and you know the closer you can
play to the boundary hit the draw that holds up the holds up the slope you’ve got an open open angle into the green 16
I thought was beautiful as well that sort of gentle rise with the bunkers dotted around and I don’t know whether
yeah you read stuff there’s no shortage of hyperbole around McKenzie but they
talk about things like he was he was in the army or whatever for a bit and he learned camouflage and his whole thing around deception and I think this just
sounds like people have maybe disappeared at their own backsides talk talking about it but there is an element of deception in some of the holes the
number of times we’re playing to things and then you got there and it it was very different to how it looked from a 180 yards further back you got to
bunkers that looked quite large that were all of a sudden like the one short right of the green on four you’re going to tell me this is an original bunker
now but it’s like five foot long you know it’s tiny the whole thing’s quite deceptive with you know the way the
course is laid out is there any truth in that or yeah I mean well for Bunker is original we’ve put an original bunker
back behind that green and I think there was actually used to be more because on the left of that hole believe it or not so it looks big though doesn’t it from
the tape yeah yeah but I mean like deceptive why I’m not sure his work MacKenzie’s work in the UK was you know
nowhere near as deceptive as beautifully deceptive as you know some of the work in America where the bunk is a much
larger scale in which one is when he was here as he was doing Cyprus Point for instance yeah again that’s but
that’s partly a product of the soils you know at Cyprus Point when you’ve got the Sandia soils it’s much easier to cut a bunker into into what I noticed here
um is there was a number of holes that had bunkers in front of the green that were like 40 yards in front of the green
do you know what I mean like so you could have hit over and running if you want yeah um but they don’t but when you look in
them from down the Fairway it doesn’t really separate itself from from the green complex so it’s quite hard to see that
you can hit over that and run it yeah and a lot of that’s playing with the angle the playing angles and the strategy that he was trying to create
you know you’re thinking about when Mackenzie was laying this out back in the day when it’s cliche to talk about Hickory clubs
in the running game uh but you know where people you know especially when the conditions get Keen in the summer
you know where you would just want to carry the bunkers you know they’re they’re much more interesting than lebroncos sat tight to the green yeah
tell us about you then Clyde so we’ve we’ve kind of jumped straight into the detail we need to take a step back
you’re 34 and you’re kind of got quite a high golfing IQ
actually seriously during the game sneak we just played uh he mentioned 700
courses God knows what just take us back to the very beginning with golf younger brother did Brothers play or what where
did you get into the game yeah I had my my well I was one of four but my brother who was 11 years older than me was was
kind of in casually into golf when he was into all sports but casually into golf uh saying I was kind of wanting to
do what big brother wanted to do so uh that was a little bit of it but uh kind of grew up on the edge of the Lake
District had a small the house kind of had a small field alongside of it that used to go out and when I got a little
bit older six seven used to go out and mow greens and stick bamboo canes in no way then
you know pitching around pitching around the field making my own little layouts and you know we kind of we always used a
holiday in the UK so from when I was about 10 years old we’d you know with all the family didn’t want to come on
holiday anymore it was kind of like yeah summer holiday would be based around where I’d go and play golf
you know so on the on the bridge and the British seats and the British Seaside itself got uh got exposed to seeing a
decent amount of good golf courses that way and you know just yeah kind of always always wanted to
always wanted to build and design golf courses just working out how to get into the business this was
the next stage so yeah I always talk about this moment in science class where I used to scribble you know these
hideously penal golf courses book that was like back to back 750 yard par 5S
there’s a space for that 100 like I could have been an elite Rider Cup course at the time
um but like you take it a step further and actually put it into practice you grew up in Kendall which is obviously
Lake District yep am I dreaming that you’ve got uh Affinity with some of the stuff at Applebee we played there yeah
maybe yeah filling if those Kendall Windermere and a hobby would be the free wrestling clubs that used to play each
other every year in matches so played those two those three obviously a lot over the years so uh I think quite
different aren’t they so it kind of exposes you to a lot of different types but yeah but I think I think growing up around course is like relatively short
Gold Coasters like that that are really in touch with the Nature’s kind of uh
kind of reflects in my preferred taste for golf courses that are really ease with their natural landscape and have a
good sense of place and don’t try to be not what they should be I think I said they’re right right yeah they Embrace
what’s around them right yeah it’s like if Appleby was trying to be a marry at golf resort would do a really bad job at
it but it probably does a great job of being Applebee’s yeah for sure and I think you know it kind of gives you a good
you know as well as seeing a bunch of Gold Coasters around the UK UK it kind of gives you a
kind of gives you a you know you feel like anything goes you think about the 15th hole that will be the infamous Bell
hole it’s just like it’s one of the craziest golf course you could ever imagine you ever get to a world now where we could build that hole in
today’s world like I don’t think you could could we or I don’t see why not I don’t see a lot with the with the right client and the right piece of land you
just need to have a bold bold client that’s quite happy to tear the rule book up yeah but you know but that’s an
outstanding golf hole yeah exactly right at the end yeah you know another part three which is similar is that one at
gossip which I think again is 15 or 14 or 15. yeah that’s a that’s a cool little drop shot that kind of the green
sits Beyond like a fold or a big shoulder but that shoulder in the front makes this especially when it’s windy and exposed Pokemon High a high tea
makes the shot really interesting yeah yeah but like it’s such a receptive green and I can’t kind of the same as
Applebee’s as long as you get it somewhere around the green you know you’re going to be right close to the hole because that’s the only place the
ball can finish so you’ve got this implied then what 700 courses around the world which is
a truly obscene fee is that was that part of the career path were you in the golf industry at that point or was this
uh just you and the thirst for knowledge or what no so if we went back so I I
studied structural engineering and architect Building architecture at Sheffield uh
kind of I thought I was thought to be a pretty sensible fallback option you know that’s kind of quite interested in football stadiums and football stadium
design practically again the skill sets transferable but you know I realized that I’d never ever get to play
pretty obviously my football’s probably worse than a snooker which is pretty average so uh but uh
yes I you know I kind of always always wanted to golf course design golf courses with my passion so uh wrote to
Tom doe sent me a little book self-published book that was pretty average but uh showed passion yeah that had written on
the golf courses I’ve seen that summer uh but at the time I’d already committed to going to or 21 22 right so I’d already committed
to going to the US to study landscape architecture uh that wasn’t really
about what I was studying it was just a good chance to go and spend some time in the US because I realized that was where
most golf courses were being built and that was kind of like the the US is kind
of like dominates golf culture so uh then the timings worked out there nicely this summer uh the summer of the
two-year program was obviously doing uh Tom needed a bunch of help on uh Digital
River Golf Club that he was worked in Nebraska so spent a summer interning for Tom uh was that on the diggers was that
on no that was that was a lot of that was a lot of six six a.m 7 A.M until 6
p.m days seven days a week hand raking 100
degree Fahrenheit uh days so but it was great fun because it was probably six or seven guys that still in the business uh
similar age just loved Golf and just being out there and excited to be on a golf course construction project for the
first time wow incredible was that how was that interning for Tom was a lot of going to get coffee is always pretty
good at keeping you no no it’s a lot it’s a lot of time spent on the business end of of construction but you know well while you’re there raking away you’re
kind of putting the final finish on what uh his senior Associates had shaped and you know you’re kind of getting to watch
those and guys and see how they operate the the heavier Machinery you know and then with
time if you’ve shown the passion and the like a good eye for the detail at least you kind of get the chance to to jump on
the machines and learn how nice and progress but you know it’s amazing you know even
though I’d seen a bunch of golf courses and I kind of you kind of figure you’ve got a good idea of of golf course design
it’s amazing how quickly you realize you actually don’t know anything until you’re gonna spend that time you know is
in a very small few people who are utterly revered in today’s world in the industry what why why is that you know
does someone who’s had no exposure to Tom though what working with him is it just an incredible eye for detail is it
does he look at things in a different way like what is it working with him that I think Tom Tom’s really good at
giving the opportunity if everyone to have their input yeah on the
design so if you’re an intern there and you’re edging a bunker for example you’re kind of buzzing because you’ve
got to you’ve got to do something you know contribute even though it’s like a really it’s like
half a percent Improvement to the golf course with you buzzing uh so but you know even with you know a good a good a
good idea can come from anywhere you know Tom yeah I think I think it’s probably Tom’s uh experience with
uh starting out in a business with Pete die you know uh you know accepting an
idea from everywhere but then you know giving the giving the associates and giving the interns like the the right
amount of creative freedom uh you know which also motivates you as someone you know
that’s that’s how they want to feel like you’ve got some opinion that yeah but you can have an input on this and it’s
not but then but then Tom’s a great editor as well so you know as long as long as you don’t take it too personally
and you’re willing for your work to be improved and Tom does always improved the work then you know I think that’s
part of the reason why the end product uh turns out so well do you think that you have been shaped
um working with him and now having going off and working in golf clubs within on
your own and you having people work with you do you feel like you’ve been shaped by him with how you deal with people that work with you
yeah yeah for sure and I think I think you need to mention uh the senior Associates of well as well have worked
for Tom uh Brian Schneider Brian Sloan Eric Iverson Don placing in the office too that uh
you know that kind of run the jobs day to day you know that you know
you know to to uh let you make mistakes which is really important when you’re starting
out and learning you know it’s it’s it helps when we work a lot of the time working in Sandy sites you know
so it’s easy those guys are so quick and so good yeah it’s like yeah it takes 10 minutes then to fix the mess that you
spent like half a half a day great half a day creating uh so I feel like I’ve just gone on a
tangent from the question there but no no no no it’s interesting and and
so then you’ve as part of that then from being 21 is that then where you’ve kind of gone off and played all these golf
courses you’ve kind of gone and seen you know the world’s greatest architecture all over the place is that no I’d
already I must have already seen three or four hundred golf course at that point probably uh mostly in the UK but
going to America gave me a good chance to see some of the great golf courses over there and some of the not so good golf courses over there you know but
then also the product of being able to work with Tom as I started out you know I want to once I graduated from well I
want to finish up in Georgia I went straight out to tari for 19 months that gave a good chance to see
some golf courses around New Zealand and I’ll spend quite a bit of time in the sand belt in Australia as I flew in and out and you know so what’s been the
biggest area for you where it’s been like that’s a watershed moment for me was it California
was it saying you know the links as a kid what what’s been the big sort of watershed one
I’m not sure I’m not sure I could I think it’s probably an accumulation of
knowledge and experience uh you know one thing I do try and do when I go and see new golf courses I’ll
often I often go to Gold classes that people wouldn’t even sniff at yeah but there might be you
know maybe a 10 quid middle of nowhere golf course but you might find one really cool hole that you would never
find anywhere but it’s like it’s like okay it works there I can build you know there might be chance me to build this build this one day uh you know when I
came back from working at tari even my parents had retired to Saint Andrews okay none of them played golf
interesting enough they just kind of liked uh like the town so you know hanging hanging out there for five six
years until I got married last year was was really beneficial for just spending a bunch of time around the old course
getting a really good understanding of the scale of the features
do you subscribe to they’ll cause being the most architecturally interesting course there
is or are you 100 yeah yeah for sure I don’t want to expand on it what what is
it you think there I think just the variety the varieties and is unrivaled uh I mean and it’s the constant you know
you know we’re kind of it’s people tend to perhaps with the Advent of golf course
architecture becoming more interesting or it’s becoming a bit bit higher profile in social media circles but you
know people tend to think of architecture through templates or like what I call Sketchbook architecture it’s like an A B there’s an a route and
there’s a b root maybe there’s a c root you know with with uh you know one one preferred
strategy the Lesser preferred strategy but you know the old the old company
but yeah but the old course is just like it’s a complete it’s a complete sliding
scale you know there’s millions of different I think I think Tom’s written about it but like
one yard of position makes a difference the variety to the you know I think I
think part you know everyone says that no one understands the old course the first time to play it that’s partially
true because the sight lines on the way out aren’t great you kind of you’re kind of fumbling where you way around a
little bit but you know but then a lot of the time A lot of times the pin position is kind of really Central what
I call the Terrace pins but as soon as you start tucking the pins away it’s amazing the angles that come into play
Peter Dawson told us the new thing he said we can always make that I think we can make the course four shots harder
with the pins immediately oh for sure some of the places that you know and perhaps some of the pros say there are
the golf course is tricked up you know maybe maybe when they start sticking the pin on this down slope from the on the
far left side of the second green it’s probably getting a little too severe yeah yeah but you know but but only there’s so many interesting whole
locations around the edge of the big greens and then the interior really friendly it’s going to have part
one partly Genius of it you know you can get the you can get the average 18 24 handicap guy that’s come for the
bucket list trip of a lifetime round but then you know in the best players in the world just I mean obviously today they
still shoot really low numbers but he’s still making the player that’s you know fought their way around it’s going to be
rewarded yeah yeah they’re engaged I think two on the old I don’t know do you guys you guys absolutely ambass to me
when I put that in my collecting 18. do I put the second one in my sense because you know because that’s only because you
ignored one in 18. yeah but I picked two because I think two is an outstandingly good golf hole and I think you’re just a
bit amped up on one so you can’t really quite get into it it’s all it’s all just going on around you whereas two you’ve
it’s the first time you feel present on the old course and I think two is a magnificent goal file yeah two I I
prefer that I prefer to follow two bunkers where they’re on the front right the green I think they’re a little superb superbalist and do away from the
genius and the strategy of having like the open running the flat ground uh but
yeah two two is a great two’s a great hole for Forza a great candidate yeah
it’s got the best back nine in the world uh I read like seven I mean I struggle
off the back too so that’s a ridiculously hard golf we’ve watched seemingly no reason we watched uh Bryson in the open on off that back tee just
hit the green and stop it when like they pitched into the upbank didn’t know dirty or whatever Curry
but it’s not a long haul seven and it’s infinitely tricky yeah really it’s real
like I I yeah the angle the angles are loads but I still don’t know the angles in the pin positions really make a difference there there’s like the the
far the far right wing uh not talking politics but on the uh on
the I guess depends what angle you play it but traditionally the far right it’s kind of like the front right it’s like a
there’s like a tiny little shelf that sticks behind a couple of bunkers then a roll and there’s a roll behind it you
know to get access to that you’re thinking about thinking about driving over towards the 10th green so you’ve kind of got a little rollers but then
when the when the greensy beside the rolling you want to go as far left as possible so you can really let One release down the green it’s just like
it’s amazing that five yards are different in the whole location can make a hundred yards a different see playing
line yeah and Tom asked you earlier when we were
playing snooker there’s a lot of reference back to this game of snooker it was a tense game of snook you do would you just started off by jovial and
then you were just staring at each other and just constantly get dialed in you asked whether you were a shaper or an
architect so you work overseas and help out with Renaissance
and Tom and the work that those guys are doing in the UK you practice almost pretty much solo right but
you’re a shaper you’re an architect first and foremost but you just do more shaping is that is that yeah yeah so
well this is my best to put it yeah so I guess
I guess I’ll do all or most of the things that are traditional architect would do uh
but also do the shaping as well so jump on the machine and trouble freak is that what it is no no I know I think that’s
that’s one that’s one of the great lessons that you learn working for Tom you know the quicker you can learn to let things go and to let someone else I
mean you’ve obviously got to have a good eye to eye to detail and the details are important but you know kind of the quicker you can you can learn to let
things go and realize you can’t do things on your own it’s like a is a big lesson to be learned uh
so yeah so when I’m doing my own consorting work I’m you know I’m still writing a Consulting report so I’m still dealing with clients
doing the drawings uh how it’s sitting with budgets when
needed working with contractors when we’re doing something like we’re doing at denim at the moment and installing the blind uh bunker line and with you
know doing quite an intensive uh batch of work so uh
I suppose a lot of clubs are short on their skill sets as well aren’t they particularly in the UK where there might be the budget where they need someone to
almost coach a little bit with the shaping because they wouldn’t be able to bring in Full Construction team to do
full full amounts of work because you know the budgets we’re dealing with in the UK Club is you know is a is a
fraction of what many of the US country clubs would be operating to so you cannot you know yeah because the model
is totally different right does that impact the way that you pitch for work and and the types of jobs that you get involved in and the nature of your
involvement yeah perhaps so I mean most of the places I work at in the UK often
work with the green keeping teams just because they’re they’re so used to doing Project work they’ve got a pretty good
skill set the team we’re trying to really you know they’ve done a bunch of construction over the last 10 15 years
same with the team are already as well and you know other places I work so you know me coming in and making sure
you know previously you know with the traditional architect that do some work wait for the architect to come in
they might have to make some tweaks but you know when you’re working in the heavy Cycles here and it really tends to Mush really quickly yeah they’re kind of
glad to have me on site you know shaping and then improving the work so
they can they can get to it and get it buttoned up before the weather you know makes a mess of it you know working out links link sites a little bit
differently not exposed and they’ll leave the Earth out and you’ll look at it and what are you looking for then so
like I don’t know is there like an example that helps bring it to life because I think the the player doesn’t
necessarily like the most players and I put myself in this category you look at a golf hole and you’re like it’s a great golf hole it’s an indifferent golf hole
it’s a bad golf hole but there’s so many little details that the golfer looks past and they don’t realize how
important they are and that’s the little subtleties and whether it’s the way the holes are tied in together or the the
shaping and the way the mounding is there like what are you looking for when you see great shaping versus bad shape
and what’s the kind of defining uh I guess I’ll try Alex you know when when I’m shaving or when when people are
shaping you know you’re kind of thinking about oh but it’s kind of it’s free it’s three-dimensional problem solving basically which is why
you know see if you you communicate your idea via a two-dimensional drawing which is great
you kind of give the giving the client an idea of of what they’re getting but you know the reality is when you’re
dealing with three dimensions you know it’s nice to have that that freedom to you know improve improve
what you’ve got on the drawing 80 to hopefully 95 100 so you know you’re kind
of thinking you’re thinking what it’s going to look like obviously thinking about you want to think about how it’s going to play
uh you think about how it’s going to tie into the surrounding uh landforms and to this and to the
existing work at a golf at the golf course you know because we don’t want it to look like I’ve come
in you know I don’t want to leave Miami I want to make it look like no one’s done any work there really uh you know
you’re thinking about you’re thinking about you know how what surface draining you
know away from a feature out into it and across a feature uh and then you know a
place like this you’ve got different soils across the site so you think that you know soil management here is really really difficult uh
going back to Moor town so you know we kind of you don’t want to build it where you could end up with potential drainage
issues or where you wouldn’t be able to generate Heather on the bunker face yeah so an example of what we’ve done this
week so the third green uh had a bunker left bunker right
the Aerials the historical Aerials show showed a bunker to the left uh we’re
pretty certain that there was a mound classic like a classic McKenzie Mound that you kind of find on the six hole at Pastor Tiempo 74 titirangi or even
you find them at August and National on the left of the eight hole there but I was on a much on a much bigger
three on a much on a much bigger scale uh well the back right to the green is
that there yes they’ve got they’ve got they’ve got a series down there yeah anyway I’m kind of digressing a little
bit here it was kind of nice we were kind of just guessing that’s what the whole used to like from the aerial but an old Secretary actually told us this
week after I’d done the shaking work that actually used to be a mound down there uh it’s a really clever feature it’s much more interesting in the bunker
because if you’ve the ground tilt’s right to left so if you’ve held the rock if you’ve held the right side the mound
isn’t going to be in your way you’ve got an open line to the green if you’ve gone to the left you can use that mount to kind of try and feed a little one back
in but if you hit that short weak shot the mound it’s like four sorry 45 feet
above the level of the green yeah it’s a tricky up and over anyway so back to your point uh because we’ll work on the
bog there you know I was trying to what you call like skim skimp material so taking two or three
inches from what was there in the strip area you know as soon as you break through that you hit the P you’re in trouble
because the peak just turns to to a mess so you know then we had to go and then we had to go and dismantle an old T to
generate some material and you know had to finish the rest in some bought in route Zone you know just to just to fill
in a bunker and generate a fourth four to five feet
yeah you’re always material management when you’re shaping on the new build as well it’s really important so you know
you think with the shaping um you’ve almost got the power of God in
your hands if you wanted to you could level this and shape it to whatever you you want to see it with is it really
difficult to know when to stop I’m not sure I’m not sure I’ve been a
job for too long if I level things but uh uh uh yes I know
it’s really important to know when to stop but I think
I think it just comes from experience and just you know it’s partly experience of seeing a lot of golf courses it’s also partly experience spending a good
amount of time on construction sites you kind of you kind of know you know when the right time to jump off is yeah
so but yeah that is definitely that’s different definitely a skill it’s a skill in Consulting work and it’s a
skill and new build work is to say great kind you can start to just all of a sudden it can just get you can get over
dirt you can do too much and you I guess easy well there are some courses there are some new builds specifically there
have been built into June land or whatever that you’re just very aware
that it this is this has been pushed around you know and you’re very aware in an artificial environment but then there
are some courses like today where you’re kind of like oh they might have pushed that man there but I might have
might have always been there and it’s all very sort of feels like it’s natural and and part of
that also comes from knowing where to make the moves if you’re going to make if you’re going to make a a big move
like you know working with Tommy and some of the great sites he gets and it’s just he’s so good
at routing routing uh that’s the America you’re gonna help him
out in the Attic no no you’ve got depending on if you’re working in Australia and New Zealand
you’ve got to be careful saying rooting so routing it is but uh rescued us yeah
routing it is but uh you know you you just you know a lot of projects you’re not making that many big
moves but you know there’s a there’s a skill to deciding where how to balance material you know but
there isn’t Consulting work as well it’s just on a much more detailed scale and partly that’s because you don’t want to
disturb too much Turf because you know the green keeps have got to put that back on the contractors got to put that back and
then you know the project becomes more expensive so opposed as building on that how important is restraint for what
particularly now with the amount of power you’ve got at your disposal yeah restraint’s important I think you’ve uh
especially working in the UK and Ireland you know where budgets are a little bit uh Tighter and you know it’s not just
the construction budget it’s it’s maintenance afterwards but you definitely have to be fairly pragmatic with your decisions
you know so would it be great to restore every single McKenzie feature out here yeah
would I do it would I do it if I was given a chance yes but is it sensible to do it probably not so
there’s not you touched on it earlier on if you want to go to do any sort of new build now you pretty much need to go
outside of the UK a lot of the land in the UK now you’ve got little to no chance of building new courses on
certainly the lynx land um we’ve got little snow chance you’ve happened you’ve obviously been across
the island recently and been involved with um the new course at St Patrick’s uh how
was that experienced how is that working on that that which is a quite a rarity for for us and yeah it’s funny it’s
funny you kind of have spent 19 months at tari in New Zealand thought wow it’s just probably have a lifetime and then
really St Patrick’s was probably the project of a lifetime for someone that top Tower 80 did it yeah well I think
perhaps because perhaps because of where I’m from you know being from the UK it’s just like to build
what was a relatively authentic Lynx Golf Course
construction so you know we were only shaping the greens there really and then selectively shaping Fairways where we
needed to and then building teas obviously uh probably my favorite part of that job was uh I got to sit on a
mower at the start of uh the project and you know St Patrick’s Houston the old they used to be 36 holes
on that property so we used some of the fairways but then some of Tom’s holes kind of angled across some some Fairways
and used some the odd little pocket of newer land yeah okay yeah
uh so you know getting to getting to sit on on the molar and just watching the holes kind of come to life in front of
me was it was was a great experience you know it was some pretty some pretty steep pretty steep places for anyone that’s
been uh the 18th that’s kind of that was the only real hole that saw some significant shaping work was had a
massive Bowl down to the right it was a mobile and the 11th hole which is actually the second most interior hole
in the property had the severest internal Contour interestingly which was almost a
mobile Hunter yeah just just select just selectively so
but yeah they’re gonna be you know you say there’s not going to be any new build work in the UK uh Tom Dot’s going
to be building yeah Castle Stewart starting from we hope to start in April so I was up there you’re gonna be
involved with that as well yeah we were in that job for Tom so it was there there a couple weeks ago with Tom getting the routing routing uh sorted so
that’ll be a good project I mean so we we must have a couple of years back they had like a model that was up in there up
in the top of the the the clubhouse there where they’re kind of like yeah we kind of want to do this
over time we’re not sure what’s going to be they’ve obviously got that wonderful little Par 3 thing they’ve got the nine hole
area which is just is fantastic isn’t it yes the little all closely known little
short course they’ve got through the dunes or yeah no it’d be a good asset be a good asset for Castle Stewart uh and
the new cast as well so yeah they’ve been basically scrapped on legs and ads yeah so focus on sort of out beyond the
the third green almost isn’t it as I understand yeah so the so the golf course will start it’ll probably play
and finish down the dragon wrench yeah uh and then it will head towards
kind of the maintenance shed will get moved uh I think no I think I can talk about this but the
plan is for the maintenance shed to move into the because it’s kind of like a farm that you pass on the road
to Castle Stewart uh it’s part of the estate and then you kind of play Down by play Down by the castle uh
play out to the coastline around like a triple si uh Wetland area
it doesn’t really it doesn’t really affect the golf costume which they’re in all honesty because you know it’s it’s
outside of it’s in the it’s in the Marshland so uh you know the golf club
is going to gonna track down the coast a little bit and then play back play back over the corner of the mountain up through
past the castle into the to the clubhouse so how will that interact with the not on a practical level but when
you look at obviously Mark and Gill’s design that’s there at Castle Stewart you know revered as a you know one of
the great new builds of the 21st century how much is it about
I suppose this is back to how much do you want to put your own fingerprint on it and how much do you want to try and
make it harmonious to what’s there because sometimes if you’re working on stuff that’s there 120 years ago it’s
easier to try and sort of look at that through Rose tinted specs whereas I suspect given that they’re both quite
modern courses is there more of a temptation to try and deviate from what was their original
what what the first course looks like so that it has a distinct personality or do
you kind of then wedded to the design principles that Gill and Mark had I don’t really know
I’m really noticed before yeah uh which was one of the things that we’ve
been Tom talked about a lot really uh is how we make the golf course feeling looking you know they’re
still talking about how we make bunker it yeah the style of bunkering but really
fundamentally we just want the golf course to feel like it belongs to in Scotland yeah so whether we borrow a few
ideas from uh how the existing course at Castle Stewart looks visually uh we’ll see but
you know they did a really good job of of introducing some native textures to Heather and the fescues there are really
lean and play really well so uh you know it’d be nice to do a
similar job uh with the landscape uh you know outside the playing corridors
uh you know but I think one thing that one thing that sets Tom’s work apart from maybe any
other architect is you know how he how he strives to be different not
necessarily for the sake of being different but you know there’s not there’s be really lazy to pitch in the
whole Tom’s work you know he’s you know and I think he tried he tries
really hard to make sure one Golf Course is different from the next and I know that’s something that I really value as
well so when you’re looking at uh breaking ground up the plan is April so there’s
we can’t work from October to April because yeah because of uh I think it’s winter showering birds so the I think is
the first thing we need to do uh as a precondition start is to actually build a Bund along the length of the hot
weather weather golf course tracks along the water uh down by the bottom which kind of high eventually hides the birds
that are nesting from any equipment or golfers so uh
yeah that’ll be that’ll be the first thing we do and then irrigate irrigation water sources obviously
yeah we should be fine we just need to get the make sure the irrigation infrastructure is in place because without irrigation there’s no new golf
course and as a new father I’m guessing it’s quite nice to a project in your own
country for a change yeah it must be quite tough because there’s a huge commitment on traveling isn’t there
with what you do you find that quite hard I mean it should say it’s Thursday three o’clock you’re probably going to
head back up to Glasgow after this and it’s a bit of family time too but have you found that yeah well I’m hoping to
get depressed with to play there to at least to at least walk around the
12 old holes there tomorrow yeah which is one of the incentives for getting the
getting the work done work done here but yeah I mean it was kind of nice
because we’re we’re in about one month in quarantine where uh when I was at tiari in New Zealand for eight months
this year it was nice to actually feel like I had a normal 7 30 till 5 30 30 job being home uh home
every every night and uh yeah even having most of the weekends
off which is nice but uh yeah that’s probably you know that is that was probably the hardest part of the job you know it’s great that you get
to travel and see the world and I would never dismiss working anywhere I don’t think there’s anywhere however I dismissed working uh but you know being
close to home is really nice it’s really nice little ones and yeah you know
family and stuff like that when you’re on your travels um do you find it easy to to Pigeon to
just squeeze in some golf or do you or do you sometimes find it Well we find sometimes when we work we travel
sometimes I’m like trying to buy it off fast yeah yeah it was it was much easier when I was single
that was that was that was for sure but yeah yeah always always thinking about I’m going anywhere always thinking about
seeing to the city with you the golf clubs go everywhere with you uh yeah
well yeah it depends yeah they’re in the car at the moment but uh even even if it’s just stop it
even it’s just stopping for a walk and taking a walk around somewhere yeah yeah that’s that’s really valuable and it’s
it’s really easy to do over here when you’re in the US it’s a little harder Justice
in the UK anyway uh I mean 700 of course there’s not many
left is there no I’m guessing you kind of you know the thing is we can get
through that sort of number of courses you’re not this isn’t a case of just looking to pay that most ranked or the in the best courses like you say it’s
trying to find the the real diamond I actually think it’s really interesting because we were we were diverted off the
motorway um on the way here because there was a crash on yeah and we yeah we went past
sort of Midgley Park nine hole and we both looked at it was like yeah I I could go there now because I was like
yeah I actually would really like to just say nothing about it just purely because I bet you
you look at it you know you’d learn something new you know what I mean it’s like I you know I I could never bore of
playing courses I’d never bore of playing golf but there’s no rubbish golf either really no no exactly and even if you play stuff that’s that’s really
really bad it also helps you appreciate the stuff that’s really really good you know yeah I pulled into a lot of golf
club car Parks over the years just randomly yeah I always always pull in and take a nosy uh
so I guess the two the two favorite golf courses I’ve seen over the the last few years at home anyway have been Iona and
we’ll say on the Isle of Shetland yeah right Rafferty was going on about wallsey yeah make it really clear that’s
not wallacy in the Northwest this is Wolsey which is way out
w-h-a-l-s-a-y yeah so it’s it’s a flight or a ferry and then it’s another ferry from the uh yeah
those two places were amazing can you go on the record here is it is this somewhere that you would do that that
sounds like a lot you know a flight or a ferry and a fairy is would you do that just for that golf
yeah yeah but you’re probably asking the wrong person because um I do that for most places so yeah I
guess on that front I’d quite like to go to Colin so I’ve done most I’ve basically seen I’ve seen all the other golf courses on the islands and the
hebridish I haven’t been to Colin so uh I’d quite like to I quite I’ve never
actually I’ve never been to mention Hampton actually um that’s probably yeah that’s that’s probably the top that’s at the top of
the list uh I quite like to go and spend a bit more time on the
on the Welsh Coast so uh the golf course on holyhead is it Bulls Bay
bull Bay looks brilliant looks pretty interesting it looks pretty interesting nothing up there I’ve never been there
but yeah well that’s not the most interesting of golf courses but the most spectacular of you I’d like I’d like to
go back when I played it I was consigned to the new yeah golf course yeah so I
didn’t get to go on to the old the old stuff which is a little crazy so I would like to go back there one day what parts
of the world outside the UK you know there’s because there’s golf everywhere but when we talk about it particularly
this podcast for whatever reason it’s us it’s GB and I sound Belt have you done
that have you done the photo no I’ve actually I really like to go there I really like to go there uh
I’d love to go to Japan and play golf there uh Colton Alice and stuff yeah all
Alison isn’t it really yeah yeah Alison was there I spent I spent some I’ve played golf in South Korea and really
it’s like it’s like the anesis of the golf culture in the UK and Ireland but the golf culture in South Korea was I
found really interesting so I’d like to go to Japan for you know just seeing something completely different again
six holes in the speed that you and I played 16 today well it’s been in South Korea in here it was like
free for a whole three four holes stop at the Tea House get get to the
clubhouse after nine have your lunch three or four holes never have never had never quarter of away house for et and
it’s like it’s a full day experience but it sounds amazing no it’s a naked Spa afterwards someone told me the words
I can’t remember who told me that South Korea is the
third largest Golf Market in the world I can imagine that I can imagine that a
lot of the a lot of big a lot of big driving range industry a lot of big clubs are owned by corporate businesses
you know they’ve got massive massive clubhouses it’s time this might not end up in the Pod but I seem to remember
reading somewhere that North Korea’s got a golf course and yeah that’s right that’s right has the record it’s like
18. the question of course at Pyongyang whatever yeah that’s right that’s right
that’s right uh I’d love to go to uh I’d love to go to Banff Springs and Highland links okay in Canada
yeah yeah I think so but it’s the kind of place where you see you don’t see that many photographs of it I don’t
think it’s a golf course that really shows itself in photographs so I’d really like to go and see what what that’s like on the ground yeah do you
think it’s pretty too much you know I know I always we’ve said this on the Pod and I’ve said it a load of
times I’ll say again for good measure but North Barrack as an experience was great
but it was nowhere near the experience that my dad would have had North Barrack because he went in the early 90s and
there would have been no social media and he wouldn’t have known what to expect other than it’s 40 pounds and he played north Barrack and then I played
north Barrack and I’ve seen a million pictures of Pierre Redan beer it’s greens etc etc and you’re like oh yeah
that’s exactly what it looks like and I know we’re the worst we’re at because we’re waving drones yeah I think
it makes us happy we talked about actually talked about in the car you know I know that and I I get that but I’m curious for your view Clyde low is
are we in a better world if we kind of pill if we’d like strip back some of the I I photography and sharing too much of
courses yeah I love this I love the surprise one of the one of the appeals of going to see a new golf course to me
is the is the journey or the experience to get
there obviously the sense of excitement so I kind of keep a journal I start doing it about maybe eight years ago of
every golf course I visited I’ll play then you know my 100 200 words on each golf course I’ve seen
the first two three lines would be do you know it would all be about not like not like oh it’s got a nice car park or
there’s a nice it’s kind of like the sense of excitement or you know like landmarks that you might have passed on the way to getting somewhere they kind
of relate to the but they may like maybe again that’s partly related to the type of golf course that I like to go and see
that might be somewhere a little bit more it is more yeah there is a more ethereal thing than
just being like these are the 18 golf holes in front of you and I don’t think we do I’m getting
defensive now but I don’t think we do just try and just this is the reason he’s getting defensive just the
conversation we had in the car is we’re almost Hypocrites because we were saying like some of these places you go to are
so wonderful that you don’t know a huge amount about it and you go there and you kind of want to spread the word because it’s so great that you’ve seen this
place and you’re like everyone needs to see this place but in doing so you might be ruining that place because the great
thing about it was I wasn’t expecting it and I went there and it was really cool and it’s really hard for like the
conversation we were having it’s really tough because we just want everyone to have that experience but that might
ruin this doesn’t take photos the best course on the hole in the course I should say Tom tomodach’s been he’s
really conscious of that uh you know at St Patrick’s you know really conscious of not really having any photography out
there uh especially early on because you know you kind of want to save the big reveals for yeah for when you get there
uh you know perhaps it’s a little bit different for Tom because he’s at the point in his career where everyone knows who he is everyone knows his work you
know versus someone that’s young that’s starting out probably does want to get a little bit more uh profile out there
but yeah you know there’s definitely I think you know if you’ve already read if you’ve already read about it and you’ve
seen the photographs before you before you go you’ve you’re largely only setting yourself up for disappointment yeah I try so not to do as little
research on somewhere as I can before I go and then that’s just the way that Golf Club Atlas and stuff like that
before you go somewhere afterwards it’s like afterwards it’s fine I love like I said I’m gonna try and formulate your own view of the before you end up
so much of this stuff of I think won the conversations you and I had in the three hour long
rain-soaked car Journey was you know where have you been with my you know on our travels through
cookie jar where it’s been the most impressive and where it’s been the least you know maybe a little more underwhelming and invariably it’s not
like the best of the worst course it’s always versus expectation and expectation is so key and that’s why the
place is like wallsey or whatever are so good or Iona or you know Church Stratton or something because you’re going in
with almost no expectation you’re like this is 20 or 30 quid so then when you find a load of stuff that’s really good you’re like okay this is Matt this is
delivered in Spades whereas when you turn up and expect 11 out of 10 you’re only going to fall short of that
yeah I do yeah I agree I agree with that I mean I’m kind of I’m kind of envious of the when we have
timed out when he got to travel around all the golf courses in Great Britain Ireland when he was much younger you know when he just had the AAA guy just
to guide him around and you know also the price you know the kind of the kind of the places hadn’t been over polished
they’re kind of just classic good golf you know and the sense of adventure must
have been discovering must have been put up a couple of notches which is he winded back even further and you think
you know what you know in I said Darwin’s day the discovery of going out to these places and seeing them and they
were like well some of that welshpool which you mentioned about you know and he was on his way to abadoo you know this is it’s a great place
there’s a couple of great holes there really good um on a similar vein if I could give you
a time machine with a round trip to one particular Golf Course to either walk it’ll play it
at a certain Year where are you going and when
um break it with some variation for this one it could have been I could have been
sat I could have been sat thinking about that on the machine this week it’s probably either it’s probably even
somewhere like the old course which is really cliched really really cliche just to see
see what it’s like you know I kind of always imagined that the Eden Green you know back before the retained
the coastline there if you’d gone along I’ve never seen any photographs I’ve never seen it written about but I always kind of imagine that must have just
trundle down to the beach onto the s Street at one point yeah uh which is really eleventh yeah yeah
then it’s probably you’re probably thinking about a golf course that has changed a lot
I’ve been has been lost we come back to the end of the Pod well
you look at projects like the leader you know yeah that’s that’s that’s I’m not I’m not really sure there’s anywhere over here that’s been
lost for good that’s been a big loss I mean it’s got to be plenty of golf I mean golf I mean there’s so
many golf clubs that you go to that today they’ve been playing on this in the site for 100 years but it might have
been their third site in the history of the golf club I do think some clubs are definitely the product obviously it’s
not a state in the bloody obvious here but are the products of their own history and therefore you know you look
at you know to the best Inland courses in the UK Sunningdale I was just going
to say they are a product of being in a in a perfect position at a perfect point in time with the perfect history that’s
given them all the chances of succeeding and then you look at well you know I don’t know
um yeah Applebee might be a bit of a Daft one but maybe by comparison like a hunter which maybe is not quite as
revered but it still has very similar bones and everything or whatever yeah Hunter Hunter was pretty pretty out
there for its time really really out there I mean it’s still out there today it was Willie Park yeah
he was involved in the development there yeah and the funding but the heathland
golf course is back when they first opened would have been really really interesting to go and see him play uh
you know you look at the scale and variety of the bunkering at somewhere like Sunnydale uh even St George’s Hill
you know this is wild isn’t it yeah so I think an interesting one would have been
I know again it’s probably cliche but like if you think about somewhere like Augusta National where you see it so
much on TV now but it’s been so modified for the modern professional
I wonder whether if I’d have gone back to 1935 and seen that and would I have
thought yeah this is going to be this is the most like amazingly undulated land and
this is a magnificent property because I dare say I doubt it looks much
like how it looks today yeah yes I’m no yes and no I suspect
I suspect unless you really knew what you were looking at it you probably wouldn’t you probably wouldn’t have
seen the genius at a great or you know the the quality of the design so much
versus versus today but maybe that’s again that’s a product of being educated and now you work in the UK you do a lot
of Renovations around here and all over the world are there any Architects courses
that you work on and think yeah this this is just genius design
any particular access to Spring out I always think I don’t work on any app
or on any Tom Simpson design golf courses uh but I always kind of think he was almost like in a misunderstood
generation or misunderstood genius even sorry uh
of the golden age he probably came along just a little bit after the others
don’t use the word likely but some Exquisite green shaping at beltrow you know something to work on the
content as well where you’ve probably got a little bit more freedom to to do what yeah do the work that he wanted to
do more fontaine’s a good one uh but he was almost even even like his bunkering
scheme for the first step at Muirfield you know he was he was almost he was
almost too clever for the for the average for the average golfer at the time so yeah Simpson big
fan of Simpson and his genius I mean I I you know always all roads lead to
Blackwell generally they do what is the middle of the country it’s the best reference point for my own golf which
which for anyone listening to this podcast means it’s a pretty point but you know you look at that I genuinely
think anyone today would not have rooted about a golf course through Blackwell it’s such a small it’s under 100 acres
and nothing feels contrived there’s nothing you don’t have to play Silly crossover awkward par threes to get
through a difficult bit of land there and you think that must have been at the time just absolute genius how how he
rooted that because it’s he’s totally boxed in on 100 acres there you know like he’s got no no nowhere to go yeah
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah there’s some really good you know the early Architects were certainly really good at
using quirks isn’t there they’re quite quite the right word but the the problem the
problems thrown up from some quite awkward sites or features you know they tended to embrace them and use them as
hazards rather rather than stay away from them like you might expect uh today’s Architects to do
but going back to your question I wonder one of the hardest things about Consulting in the UK golf courses as you
know Italian some other answers but Gold Coast has evolved a lot over the
first 30 40 Years of their lives especially in London golf courses well Link’s cross is too even more preps but
uh you know if you kind of if you’re kind of looking at things from a restaurant you know if you kind of you’re kind of respecting the past not
for the sake of respect in the past but because the architecture was probably more interesting uh you know it’s kind
of like what what era what what era what age of
the golf course do you think about going back to you know that’s one thing I’m finding it denim at the moment it’s a great cult plan but then there’s a whole
bunch of bunkers added after in the 10 20 years after that you know it’s just
like what do we go for do we you know do we decide what we think is most interesting for today or do we be purists and look
to put back up with what was once uh difficult conversation then isn’t it because people don’t want to see the
course up and down or they don’t want to you know people just get wedded to these things and I think you know there’s this
you know rightly wrongly there is there is definitely a space for a benevolent dictator in golf like it’s when you’re
going through committees it’s almost impossible to get consensus they will have different opinions on what should be done on with the course and yeah it’s
impossible I’ve got one last question and I think we’ll get you out of here um we do apologize for taking up so much I enjoyed the Suka I didn’t enjoy the
podcast though but I enjoyed the snooker but the fun swing good it’s been a couple of years it’s been a
couple of years since I’ve since I’ve played so we studied structural engineering and architectures into the
building do you still do you look at buildings in or and if so any golf club
houses you look at and go yeah are you into golf club houses at all because we’re sat in a really bad yeah no I do I
do I do enjoy Building architecture uh a lot uh funny enough the most interesting
or the most you know South Cape in South Korea and California
designed uh it’s made the world 100 list at some point uh you know the golf the
golf course there is kind of like a a docate on Tom scale but then the clubhouse architecture is like really
contemporary in the buildings around you know like the housing units around like a ten just like amazingly interesting
modern high-end modern design with some really great really great details which is partly because the guy that developed
it was South Korea’s fashion Guru right okay for for a while so you know that that one
that one on the Contemporary front then yeah I’ve just uh kind of any any
clubhouse that possesses you know a good a good sense of space feels in tune with
the he’s got a good relationship to the golf course is really important so motown’s a great example because it’s
kind of like English Countryside uh but then it’s kind of really adjacent
the 80th greenfields feels a part of the golf course and he’s also in play for anyone that hits a big hook
I’ve got one last question I know we said that was the last but this is the last the last part can we have one more
question yeah of course I’m sorry I’m sorry you are a very very successful
Young architect and shaper um
if you went back to you at 18 years old would you
do the same thing as to get where you are now and if you were giving advice to someone that wants to get into the industry
what advice would you give a good question Tom I’ll allow you to ask yeah yeah I mean I’m yeah I’m I’m
not a great believer in dwelling on things too much because you know you kind of learn you learn from experiences
you learn from your mistakes uh you know I’ve never mind I never mind making a mistake I just hate
it’s when you make the mistake twice you know uh so now don’t forget to do much
differently uh you know it’s kind of like Tom Tom probably because the way you set up his business and partly
because said mostly because he had a bunch of really really talented guys that none of the young guys were ever
really going to surpass you know he was really good at pushing us out to start our own businesses you know so my first
consulting job was it at 27 work at turangi in New Zealand you know kind of been learning learning the
business side of things has probably been the trickiest thing you know and you get if your name kind of gets out there and you get a little busier the
hardest part is balancing the work you know being selective and what jobs you take on you know work working in the UK
with your Consortium work generally speaking everyone wants to work in a one month window which is a nightmare
because you really really you want 12 Octobers and the sound and there’s and there’s only one you know it’s a finding
finding that balance uh is probably the toughest part uh but now for anyone wanting to get into
business I mean start young that helps you know not
having you know it all used to you know for for quite a long while uh they’re pretty still is in
this country largely you know the way to get into it was you kind of study a landscape architecture degree and you’d kind of do the tradition of the
the post-war drawings hand over to a contractor model which is fine it’s got
its place for sure uh you know but you know being starting out young gives you
you’ve got no Family Ties he kind of gives you the chance to spend some time in a construction site learning that way and you know
you probably don’t need quite as much money to live as well which helps you know when when the work’s a bit more sporadic when you when you’re starting
out uh but just but just having a Passion but having a passion is really important you know the days are the days
are long it’s a lot of time away from home uh and you know just a passion to go and
see seeing seeing seeing golf courses as well you know makes it makes a big difference and that way you kind of
you kind of networking at the same time meeting people uh yeah I’m not very good at that part I tend to avoid avoid human
interaction but I think with all things in life it it’s a mixture of being good and being lucky and you’ve done
and you know incredible things self-publishing a book and then sending it to Tom with a letter and asking if
you could intern and then you’ve got lucky that he’s turned around and said yes so it’s a combination of both but
honestly Clyde like that’s been a fascinating talk it was a fascinating frame snooker boys that took some time I
was I was ready for like half an hour before the uh you went through two cycles of 15 minute lights well uh well
eventually it’s too hard can we get you back on the Pod to do an Eclectic 18. yeah it sounds good I might just uh I
might just have a a few uh a few practice Parts here before I go it’s been it’s been too long
that’s great thank you so much for joining the Pod it’s uh yeah it’s been a pleasure good cheers