hello and welcome back to another episode of the cookie jar golf podcast a few days ago I managed to sit down
with Martin Ebert Rawson George’s and have a chat through his eclectic 18. it’s a fascinating to look through his
take on Lynx Golf and his take on golf in general he does have a bit of a pawn shop for Links Golf he actually kept it
to all British Lynx courses he did feel bad a little bit afterwards that uh 17
of the courses he chose were courses he consults at but when you’re keeping it to Links Golf in the UK Martin’s lucky
enough to uh to have worked with most of the good ones so hard to avoid really but he had some fascinating stories and some fascinating
insight into golf and we jump around talking about different topics within golf but it was uh it was good fun to
record and I hope you enjoy

hello and welcome back to another episode of the cookie jar golf podcast I
am Tom Mills and today I’m sat in a wonderful location we’re in the George’s dormier house and I’m here with Martin
Ebert Martin welcome Tom thank you very much second time on the podcast it is I got enough I must have done something
wrong to stop me coming back for a second time but good time we left it about a year so we thought we’d give you
a bit of a break but um thank you for agreeing to come on uh what brings you to to the coast of Kent in the in
the Deep midwinter where there were the latter part of December what um what brings you to Kent well we’re very
fortunate in in advising at Ross and George’s raw Singapore’s and princes um and I would if I’m bringing anyone to
look at the great detail of of Link’s terrain of of uh green surrounds green
shapes then these are the three courses that I would always bring them to these are stand out in terms of me I think they’re the best in the whole of Britain
I would say yeah I think I mean there’s I think the fact that the collection is so tightly it was based you know they’re
all in that one one little string along the coast um but really the quality of the shapes
of the greens and green surrounds I think is what’s your standout holes you think or or examples of quality green
surrounds on on these three courses um okay so six Dunes um on Princes I
think is great um there’s so many cases there actually where there’s not a huge amount of bunkers but they’re just the the shapes
of the green surrounds are tremendous Ross and George is has some some wild greens some greens that if we were
designing today we would be we’d be told oh you know dig that up and do it again and the ninth I mean what an incredible
green that is but it was played from a different direction in the old days it was a par three and the fourth it’s hardly you know
maybe it’s just enough flag positions but uh and then we get to think ports
and you’ve got greens like I mean I always sort of quite often quote that I think the 16th is the best green in the
world even though it’s got Hollows all over it um 16 I think it’s it’s just the just the
way those shapes on the plateau green just provides so many interesting flag positions but there are so many flag
positions on the green is that an important factor in sort of Green Design yeah Dependable positions it is really
um you know modern day amount of golf that’s played when you do get the big events having a variation of flag
position is important um but you know some of the best screens are very limited in their in their flag
positions so you know some of course some of the some of the greens that we’ll be talking about on holes we’ll be talking about today
um you know they have that that issue but um so yeah it’s I think that
for me the best greens are ones where they’ve got beautiful shapes beautiful feature but they do also offer a variety
of flags not only for maintenance but also to vary the character of the hole you know it can change dramatically as
to whether the flag is one part of the green or another I think some of the greens at sync ports are probably some of the most
interesting greens you’ll find anywhere in the world I mean you have to forgive me because it’s been a while since I’ve
played Imports what’s is it the fourth or the I think there’s there’s backed about there’s a real punch ball Green in
the third the third is the third and then you’ve got the driver but it’s not drivable but it’s a drivable
green sites yeah and just really tempt you as a golfer and that third is just yeah I mean I couldn’t get my breath
when I saw that for the first time when you when you Crest the the rise and you just see that below you think God look
at that it’s just just so old-fashioned old school so I think the variation at sync ports is tremendous Sandy parlor
the next the next hole I mean it used to play Blind over the June but uh you know now it’s got the sort of plateau green
so it’s so different to the third just before it are you able to make greens like that anymore the third you know big
punch ball is that is there much of a demand for that sort of thing anymore we always sort of think about this in terms
of of you know some of the best greens have got Hollows in their surfaces and the agronomists would tell us well
that’s you know that’s a problem you really you’re only inviting some issues if you have those Hollows in the surface
so um so it’s something that is frowned upon but actually when you look at the
great old greens then they do have that character there’s some great examples of holdout grains like um cruden Bay where
you’ve got the bathtub or Applebee where it’s got the half pipe gray I think it’s again 16 15 16 that par three and
there’s some wonderful kooky greens out there and they’re always the ones that people say oh you
play that great yeah they just seem quite few and far between them I think you’ve got a quite bold to do it I suppose now and
like you say if it’s against what the economists are saying then that’s the problem that is the issue if you go
against the theory then and there are problems but uh um no I here you can still replicate
similar sort of features but I still and still get some surface flow off the greens so that’s probably the way to
deal with it but um if you’ve got the perfect terrain and the perfect sand underneath and and a
good free draining root Zone then yeah why not where’s the best sand come on where’s the best where’s the best
Terrain in Britain we’re going to go into your eclectic 18 shortly and it’s it’s a well I must admit I had a I had a
trip out to um um to to Port Rush the other day and then went along the coast on a bit of a
walking trip um in Donegal and Revisited some Patrick’s which um which I’d I’ve
been trying to call the Casey’s the Casey family yeah over the design of that course and of course Tom Doak beat
us to it which is you know fine he’s a lot of you know his track record is second to none and and I still reckon
that that is the best piece of ground I’ve ever seen from here of course the Saint Patrick’s link site so it was a it was with sort of uh you know slight yeah
a bit of upset that I was seeing what I was seeing I mean he’s made a great job of it and uh
um it’s been a fabulous job of it and from what I’ve not been there yet from what I’ve heard of every reporter I’ve
heard absolutely glowing and it’s not easy to there’s not many new places where it’s not a new place because it was of course there originally but
there’s not many builds now around obviously they’re doing the new one at Castle Stuart again that’s Tom Durk but not phenomenal amount of land you can
work with now no exactly I think that was one of the best I mean there’s some testing greens there to say maybe you know if we were if we had been given the
commission we wouldn’t have produced greens quite with quite as much uh undulation in them as as those greens
but I mean I think as a resort course you know for people playing it once or twice then you know it’s it certainly
you know causes a lot of uh discussion and and uh you know but it’s clearly
that the sight and the terrain for golf is just now outstanding I mean I’ve not done a huge amount of the island of
Ireland but from what I hear in terms of the terrain and when you get around I’ve played quite a lot in Northern Ireland
and the land is you know breathtaking it really is but I think there’s absolutely
blessed with the land out there I I’ve got a particular ponchon for East Lothian I think that the the Land There
is just the first time I played north Barrack was like playing off a car park it was it’s so firm I don’t
um I was chatting to an American friend recently and uh we were talking about links you know in in America and he used
to he basically was just saying you know that it’s just really hard to find land as firm as that you just don’t have that
third man it’s all being capped or um I don’t know I agree I think that it’s
the it’s the quality of the turf on our best links and you know obviously it depends how they’re maintained and these
days to a certain extent how much water you’ve got to put on them to keep them in great condition as well but I do
think that it’s that it’s that club to you know ball and turf contact which
is different to the bend grass of the states um or you know of other of other regions
um you know I think that’s just as important as the way the ball reacts on the green for instance and yeah I mean you we saw us and Andrews on the old
course just How firm they were and that’s that’s you know in terms of almost overly firm but that’s what you
want in terms of the ball receiving itself on a green is not just pitching and stopping you want some run on the
ball but also I do think it is that contact with uh with clubs bumped into each other at some Andrews a few times
at the 150th and I walked the course on that Wednesday I genuinely have said this on this podcast before
I genuinely couldn’t see them getting anywhere near Park as the ground was just like concrete wasn’t it it was the
hardest thing I’ve ever seen and then they still they still absolutely dismantled it yeah but it was it was
amazing it was the firmest I’ve ever seen anything was that and you know in some ways
I guess the the course did you know sort of stood up to a certain extent but um but I guess the driving distance you
know the ball they might have been pitching at 300 plus but then it was running another 100 or more
um so that was the only thing does it with the the old course does it test them from a you know all the way through
the bag certain things yes they’ve got to be brilliantly controlled with even the shortest little shot or pitch you
know is it needs the ultimate control going onto greens as firm as that um but you know anyway it’s a great
course and it’s you know you know it’s one of my favorites um I was only telling the story earlier today down in the in the
um in the bar at St George’s um about 1938 article
um that was uh was posted um describing um a super championship course which was
meant to be designed back in 1938 at St Andrews because they said the old course was Obsolete and that it couldn’t it
couldn’t stand the test eight of the holes were drivable including the two two par threes but uh and then Harry
Colt was coming in to design a super championship course using the new and the Jubilee
um and then the war came along and and it never happened but that was going to produce a super championship course as they described it of 7 600 yards back in
1938 well we’ll get on to your to your eclectic a team shortly but the new and the Jubilee are
not in it and they are wonderful golf courses um just out just out of Interest which is new or Jubilee
um I the GPS got more interesting terrain I suppose but I think I think
the uh and to be honest I don’t know the Jubilee as well as I should with my old boss I’m still having done a major redesign on it but I’ve always been when
I’ve been at St Andrews it’s been the old course and and uh and the new course that that is really I play we’ve looked
at the new professionally and looked at the and the Eden as well and you’re right maybe God yes so many holes you
could put into it I mean I’ve only played like the front nine of the Eden but it’s just some of the holes out
there fabulous well when we did our research I mean some of those holes were criticized when Cole first put them out
there because they are some severe greens some some really incredible greens but uh it is you’re right I think
those Frontline are very good yeah the land out there is just so good but um San Andreas has major eclectic
eclectic 18 and it’s come in at number 17. yeah I mean I’ve been listening to
some of the other eclectic choices I can’t remember was was Bruce was he uh was he the first he don’t trust Bruce he
doesn’t know what he’s talking about but no I would say I just can’t go beyond the 17th some would say it’s sadistic
Martin that’s a quite I’m looking at your whole card I would say the whole thing is fairly sadistic but
you could have gone with the first the 18th the second you know the seventh
what hole plays over a hotel
well the railway sheds yeah as far as I’m aware then yeah that’s always been the line of it
um but you know it just breaks all the rules doesn’t it I absolutely every role I mean there’s a public footpath with
you know people walking towards the line of play um it’s just lunatic but it’s just
brilliant as well and it you can just know that anything can happen when you get to that that hole absolutely
anything could happen one of the questions I ask the Architects that we get on the podcast um are you a subscriber to
the old course being the most architecturally interesting courses there is
um I think so yeah I mean I I just love the I guess it’s just as basic as I just
love the shapes of the ground yeah um and and they’re not they’re not 100
natural I think there’s strong evidence that uh you know old Tom did a fair bit to it and but I think the result of it
you know the shapes of the greens the green surrounds I think is the model for all uh after makeup I’ll give a
presentation where I say that it’s the it’s the mother of all courses but no other courses like it I mean no other
course has got two par threes that I know of maybe there is one or two but only two par threes
um it plays into the town out of the town the first and 18th just you know one huge great bit of ground which did
used to have a bunker in the middle 18 side on the yeah well no it’s more on
the foot it came in to play more of the first and then they reclaimed the um the first Fairway because that land
is like some people don’t know some people it’s very flat the land on it’s probably the
only flat part of the old course is on The Fairway of the first yeah yeah so reclaimed ground
um but yeah that bunker just imagine if you stuck a bunker in there I think I was was asked they were changing completely now yeah I’m not sure you’d
survive if you managed to put one in there now I think uh I think one of the most interesting anecdotes about the old
course and I’ve heard it a few times is the old course first is almost intimidating because it’s so
forgiving you know you’ve got what 75 yards something about 70 yards I should think yeah to Amat and it’s almost like
where do I go it’s like really intimidating the horror stories of it yeah yeah just uh yeah you just got to
guard your lines and then just uh focus on on something down there but don’t look at the outer bounds about the old
course is that obviously it used to be played in Reverse um have you ever played in Reverse I’ve
not done that no no no it’s interesting if you look at how the 17th would play if you played it in reverse that road
hole bunker suddenly becomes very much more sensible yeah in terms of
where it’s placed and how that would you would play into it um where I think where it is for 17th
just there’s no sense to it whatsoever it’s um you think of the great shots there and well cam Smiths this year yeah
okay yeah savvies um David Marsh who’s uh just sadly left left us but you know
what a what an incredible shot in the Walker copy here in there to to seal the walking up so it’s just a scene of of
Great Moments and I think it’s Angela
that was Henry long that’s great yeah moment but I watched a video that recently and he’s just there just
scratching his head I mean you wouldn’t get that now someone who’s actually in contention just all you just you just look perplexed he was more than
um more than angry he was just fully perplexed so it’s I think it is well it had to be in the in the 18.
leave that one out but um you’ve been very you’ve been very good
with this Martin you’ve provided me with not only your first eclectic theme but some backups as well
um which is nice I’ve told you it’s against the spirit of things really but you would you will insist and we’ll talk about some of the backups because I
think some of those stories are going to be um are going to be important but let’s go back to the beginning so
you’ve gone for Port Rush as a first which I think is an interesting choice because
um you’ve got external lab bands and internal outbounds um and probably one of the most
fantastic greens um why have you gone for Port Rush first yeah I mean this has been a fascinating
exercise just trying to work out you know the holes and I had you know the fifth at Port rush I just love I think that’s a fantastic but there’s another
one that you know when we come to five is the reason why um Edge Port rush out
but um so then I was thinking for Port rush you know and and what would be a great first hole and I think I
absolutely think that the outer bounds both of which are actually internal really they’re within the goal I suppose yeah one is the driver yeah
um and um and that is controversial I think there were calls for it to be obviously you know why is there internal
out of bounds on this great course and then Rory hits it out of bounds I think he could have won the open I
think if that wasn’t out of bounds he wouldn’t think I mean the stories are that he’d hit a couple out on the right
the night before in practice and so and that was the you know the next shot he hit was the one you know don’t go right
don’t go right but if he’d found his way behind that bit on the left did it well
that was a triangle that the club didn’t own it’s just a tiny triangle there yeah well quite a big triangle it bounds the 18th as well so it’s a it’s a reasonable
sized piece of ground and that is why it’s out of bounds because historical learn it now they own it now but they’ve
just done it first yeah but now they just kept it OB but you just think you know obviously he was nervous but then
he finds a trampled bit of ground knocks his eight eye and seven iron onto the green
makes his power and off he’s off and running here but he took eight right now poor chap I mean that was so I think the
thing with Rory I mean it’s this park has always got whales off wildly off topic but when you think he
missed the cut by one that year and I think he was on the Calamity it might have been Calamity or even uh it
might have been lamberty yeah we took a three people or something from nowhere exactly
and you missed the cut by one and yeah he had the whole world on his shoulders yeah what was great about it is they did
get um someone from the island of Ireland and Shane came through and he was when
Anna was there as well on that behind the grandstand behind the first screen when Darren Clark you know hit the hit
the first tee shot and cleared the bunker on the right he took the hole on and it was so Fascinating People did
different things on that hole and then he knocks it up onto the green holds the pert I mean what a fairy tale star yeah
and then he what was he three under after five or something ridiculous and they worship him before rush they love
they love Darren there and the other reason for choosing it is in The Eclectic is that you know it’s a it’s a
severely uphill approach into that green and there’s not many good you know
really good uphill holes and I think that is is just in a class of its own as you said the green is just brilliant up
at the you know up at the end of the whole sort of divided into quadrants you’ve got the huge cavernous bunker
sort of waiting in the approach anything short and left is just going to come back into that bundle so
um so now I think it is is well worthy of that I would defend I really hope that the OB stays in right and left for
the next open really what admission it would be if it was taken out so but let’s see well yeah it’s a tricky one
isn’t it like you say it is an admission if they do change it um and I think you’ve got to keep these nod to your
head to your heritage because it’d be quite easy to homogenize a lot of golf courses so
um and I have to say I think you know that the variation of strategy on that whole a lot of it was down to the head
of bounds because you know otherwise I’m sure they’d all be wailing away with a driver but a lot of people hit a nine
left it short of the bunkers um and then they were leaving themselves probably almost 200 yards into that
green and you’ve got to be that sort of front portion of that grain is no go if you don’t be anywhere near
it you could have another 200 yard shop back you know or you could have 60 yards back if you if you’re a bit short on
that whole percent so no wonderful first choice wonderful first choice so we’ve got a few things
to move on to um Aberdeen’s an interesting one because I
eagled it I’ve got to get my own gotta get my own golf in there Aberdeen uh part five yeah
um well I think everyone just sort of loves the that front nine at Roy Aberdeen you know just in the in amongst
the dunes you know the first hole playing down to them and then or down to the coast um and then two as a as a whole classic
whole you know in the valley in the dunes I mean it is a special special place
um so yeah I just think it’s a yeah it’s a probably a valuable hole for
for the better players eagle or vehicle obviously I don’t get many Eagles in my life so
that clearly must have struck a chord I probably played it about two years ago but no I mean what terrain it is for golf really it’s I think it’s the most
fabulous land in Aberdeen and people talk about the bat nine there I honestly didn’t didn’t honestly move
out of the dunes but I didn’t feel like a huge transition in the course yeah that makes sense yeah no exactly I agree
I think quite often when you see a lot of these old courses they were rooted with the you know with the the best land
on the front nine um you know using macaronish um you think of Royal County Down
Turnberry even you know a lot of these courses had that best land for the opening holes which is a reason for that
do you think the only thing we can come up with is you know match play was much more in Vogue and they didn’t want to waste the best land on the closing holes
which might not be played but uh but certainly anyway the choice that Royal Aberdeen was was to go with the the
coastal stuff on the outward but I agree with you the Batman’s not weak by any means um and uh you know overall though and
the history is brilliant the clubhouse Aberdeen I think is one of my favorites yeah the fact that it’s so close to the
the first tea and yeah the whole well the first thing just being right outside and everyone’s watching is there as
they’re tearing off I think so special wonderful bit of bear land you mentioned um makahana she’ve actually got askanish
I have in your eclectic 18 here um and all I know about macrohanish and
askinish is they’re really far away are they going close together are they close together yeah
geographically they’re kind of in the north well West aren’t they so yeah oh they’re very much yeah no it’s a one hell of a trek to macrohanish um I think
probably in some ways arguably it’d be easier to get to ask Anish really if you hop on the you know the plane from Glasgow it’s only 45 minutes across and
then it’s a half an hour drive down down to ask Anish um but now a few yeah a few real
connoisseurs of architecture have been out there and had a look um obviously it was old Tom Morris’s
design back in 1891 um I was fortunate to be asked amongst a
group of others to go and you know refine the course and to be honest we’re not sure whether we’ve we’ve found the
old course but so how did that look you had to go there and did you
did you do like a topographical survey or were you just waiting around trying to find things how did it work it was a
mixture like it was trying to find the holes like old Tom Morris would have found them in the first place
um so we whacked some pegs in in various places where we thought teas would be good dog legs would be good greens would
be good um but we did have an aerial photograph we did have um a GPS unit which would record where
those pegs were so we retired back to the borough day as well
he was just in the sat nav yeah yeah well we yeah we did it in Old Tom style but with a bit of technical help but and
then we yeah we retired back to the boroughdale in and then just got the laptop open and just thought where do these holes you know just let’s choose
the best when you have a green sign you have a tea um of course when he laid out the green
type was essentially the tea because they just went from one to the other but then it’s still not a straightforward exercising going from A to B I don’t
know so how do you do you have to sort of just work with what’s in front of you and think well this is how this would
have shape mean the Topography of the of the June Lander asking is quite dramatic
and so but there were these flattish flatish
and I have to say flatish they weren’t totally flat but flatish areas which where you’d think the greens were
located so they sort of gave us the the hint of where all greens might have been and then it was really a question of
linking them up into a you know a sensible route so I was asking in a playable condition when you went there
they had nine holes but not it was nothing like it is today it was it just sort of contracted down to a very
rudimentary nine okay maintained by maintained by the Yeah local we had one
one green keeper I think they had at the time so now they’ve only got they’re up to two or two and a half but uh but no
irrigation um green speeds which probably I don’t know they I mean they’re so sloppy it was difficult to measure them but
they’re they’re probably seven or eight maybe on the on the stint meter but uh but yeah they’re they’re wonderfully you
wouldn’t think that anything’s been constructed because I guess it hasn’t been um but it’s it is some great great
terrain some great Coastal stretch stretches of holes um and I
after helping them find it it wasn’t by any means all my work it was a group of us
um yeah went out for the asking open for several years in a row and would always play in the last game
in the astonish open because it would always take quite a long time the rough gets so thick
um it’s just the thickest rough you can imagine so they have a a rule called the Ralph rule um after Ralph Thompson the
the key man of the project in the early days and um where you just drop it out in the Fairway which I never wanted to
play until I was something like 50 for the front nine and then I decided to fit on the background but
um but anyway the um it takes so long that we decide to go
swimming um during the round and the hours going to open so the record number of Swing swims I think was Adam Parks um
former Cambridge Captain I think he did four swims in the round on the coastal stretch from the sixth through to the through to the 12th T
um maximum swinger Golf Club sodden well the maximum number of swims I’ve managed
was three um was quite proud of that until Adam came along and beat the record um but we’ve played it with it what do
you say swim are you actually swimming it has to be a full submersion so you need to just dip in come out yeah but
it’s pretty chilly yeah end of August but it just it leads me to one story about this whole so you’ve gone with the
the 12 number 12 number 12 which is the most crazy part five it’s a multiple root hole blind second shot up and over
a June bank but you can hit it way left if you want to um but anyway one particularly foul day
and I won’t name the my fellow competitor but it’s a good friend of mine and we went and did the swim it’s
traditional to have the final swim at the 11th green so we we did that and then came back up and he decided it was
so such a foul day that yeah much better to just play the hole without any clothes on at all so we’re standing on
the 12th tee I hope he’s in good neck reasonable
okay back again a bit so we’re standing there and he’s quite a quick player and
he just he froze and we just thought what yeah what what’s up why why are you not hitting the ball
and he and we’re all sort of laughing in here but he said I can’t do it impossible
I need my glove hahaha we walk back to his bag put his glove on
hit the shot and played the rest of the whole naked so I won’t name him that is
a story so that’s why we do The Eclectic 18 we want to know all these fun things that’s why we want to know these and that’s the
thing you might not be the best 12th hole we’ve ever played Perhaps it is but it does come with an interesting story it’s an amazing bit of terrain it really
is and in fact there was a there was a bunker there and we were criticized for how crashed to put a bunker there and in
fact the bunker had appeared the castle had CR you know the cows had Sheltering
had created it so just exactly like an old bunker so it was a yeah it’s just that’s how natural and raw it is ah it
sounds like a man there needs to be somewhere I need to visit but you mentioned in your um in your
and you’re talking about asking us today you mentioned green speeds um I saw something on Twitter recently
about green speeds in the sort of 40s 50s and it was specifically talking about
America in terms of like um oh commands and um Augusta and a few places this and the
green speeds were considerably lower than than they are today do you think um from an architectural point of view
that the increasing green speed is kind of do you think that’s for the benefit of
the game or do you think it detracts from what um how it’s meant to people no I think you know even the massaging that went on
um on the 11th screen it’s an Andrews for instance was was criticized you know how can you change the old yeah the any
of the greens in the old course but in fact it was restoring a flag position that had become untenable because green
speeds have got up so high so you know I think when certainly for
but when operational reasons you know the open is rarely played on greens which run faster than 11 probably you
know which is really fast by the way that’s yeah exactly but when you get into the rounds of 12 and 13 it’s ridiculous so so I yeah I totally agree
I think you know 10 is is a good speed and and you know if it’s a well-designed green that’s that’s good because you
know if if if you’ve got big slopes in Greens which then you’re impossible putting downhill
then you know they become so difficult to hit the ball uphill as well yeah you know arguably Augusta now is it’s
I mean it’d be second if I said it was silly but some of the the ways you have to Pat on that and Augusta you can see
it’s just it’s now on Impossible now if you get yourself a certain position and it wouldn’t have been like that 40 50 60
years ago yeah well 60 70 years ago maybe yeah you look at the old footage and it was certainly a different yeah different ball roll altogether wasn’t it
so do you think do you think it’d be more interesting if we just slowed it all up a little bit yeah as I say I
think when you get to 12 13 it’s almost it’s so hard to even judge it at that speed isn’t it really with if you’ve got
any form of slope on the greens and you look at the you know some of the great old Architects they love putting some big undulations in but uh you know just
it’s a shame when they don’t work anymore um so well we’ve got one up Blackwell
our 15th at Blackwell is um it’s so severe now that there’s
probably two or three pin positions and it’s a fabulous golfer it’s absolutely it’s one
of my favorites in the golf course but it’s yeah when they when you get the greens quick it’s very very very difficult and
it wouldn’t have been like that when they played at seven already but I’ve gone on a complete tangent as I always
do um your Xbox 18 is very links are dominated well yeah so
you can answer the question is gantana lynx well it used to be by the Sea it used to
be this by the Sea it’s got most beautiful Sandy subsoil uh you’ve got it at number three yeah and it’s in land
you know it’s very much Inland these days and but I just think as a it’s just a beautiful bit of terrain and it’s
beautiful Turf as well and that’s largely down to the Sandy nature of of the soil and the third was yeah short
powerful um so you definitely got to get a few of those in I noticed you you focused on my back
nine which was it had so we’re ready testing powerfuls but but the Gant third at Ganson you know it’s probably
drivable for some of the the guys the beautiful old pictures of the bunkers at ganten it was this incredible sort of
diagonally uh running bunker um really tempting people to carry carry
the bunker off the tee um and a lovely bunker up on the right side of the green as well huge green
front to back loads of beautiful undulation in it um so I think it’s yeah this is still a fun designing short part four is that I
imagine that’s the best part of the job definitely those shorter shorter threes shorter fours and shorter fives are you
know great fun to to mess about with I must say um yeah just do you think canton’s like
who counts in third is a prime example of a shortfall is that how I think it is yeah yeah um there’s a bit of out of
bounds it’s quite a long way right but it’s out of bounds in play but I think the bunkering really you know makes the whole
um and again a varying sort of strategy is definitely adopted when the when the best players go and play there and I
think one of the things is is is don’t make it too long so gradually some of these short fours the teas have
been taken back and back and back and sure these elite players are hitting it so far but it’s almost more fun
all of these shortfalls when you do give everyone a chance yeah I think it’s four which starts with the number two is
that’s a really good golfer yeah you’re not going to go far wrong exactly as long as there’s enough sort of fun you
know up around the green um I agree I think like um I think in mine I had uh Castle Stewart
before third fourth um which I think 280 but there’s trouble everywhere yeah absolutely everywhere
and even if you decide to lay up there are bunkers to penalize it it’s just yeah yeah I love it I love a good
shot for sure no I think in general I think our short fours have probably got a bit too long for certainly for Club
golfers yeah and that you know everyone have a reasonable level and who can hit the more reasonable distance should have
that that fun and that Elation of getting close to it well I bet you when you when you give golfers the
opportunity to if it gets to 350 I’m not standing there thinking I can get on
which kind of then just makes the decision for me whereas if you give the
golfer the opportunity it’s not my words it’s a words of a friend of the podcast bar and the opportunity to fail
you know like oh I could get on the ground yeah yeah yeah but then that’s where really big schools come in yeah I
think um when we played Canada recently the only holes that really flummoxed all
of us were the short ones because we all thought we could bully them and you can’t yeah we’ve got a well-designed
short for us um it’s good so you’ve gone from a short four to a really long four we won’t
spend long on the fourth at St George’s because it’s been nearly everybody’s eclectic 18. It’s a Wonderful yeah well
there’s some other good holes at St George’s I mean 12th I think is a wonderful again short four and that
would have got in if it hadn’t been pushed up by um ask Anish I think it was in the end wouldn’t it but so yeah so rules and
George’s I mean the huge great bunker on the right hand side um you know that’s the the feature of
yes Ross and Georgia are at the maiden’s important as well but I just love that love that bunker feature um and the
green is crazy and the green is absolutely Bonkers absolutely crazy but um but in your alternate this is where
this is where it all gets a bit interesting and your alternate uh 18 you gave me working which is yes everybody
loves working for yeah well I used to be a member there and you know inspired Tom Simpson to take up the the professional
golf course architecture from his legal um background um and just the way that green slopes
away the sort of nerve-wracking t-shirt alongside the railway line if you’re going to take the hole on
um and if you pull it left either intentionally or unintentionally then that shot over the bunker to the Wasteland is brilliant yeah so obviously
inspired by the 16th and Andrews but uh oh was it yeah is that where the expression came from yeah Stuart Payton
and John they were the two guys who really were the The Architects of uh of working and they went out to dig the
bunker didn’t they were four yeah so yeah I I think it is it I wish it had been in there but um I think Ross and
George is again came back to the links the links game and then Royal Wellington five this is
we got five is another one where you’ve got a really interesting uh Alternate which I’m gonna get wrong again is it
the ales Libby no aislebby I can’t yeah I would I’d love to have put this one in
as the as the fifth um it’s a it was a little six hole course that um a real gentleman called
Chris Christopher Holloway um commissioned on his on his beautiful estate in Somerset overlooking the
Blackmore Veil his house sits up on top looks right down a huge slope to a big
lake that he built um and and there’s a fifth hole is a is a short three across the lake to a tiny
little green with lots of undulation in it um you can play it actually from lots of different angles these we’ve got six
screens there and you just play it from loads of different angles to produce 18 a routing of 18. you can’t fit many on
the course but um Can people play this is that well it needs a little bit of an invitation only yeah but so maybe it
doesn’t even qualify on that basis but I thought it needed a mention well he might get a thousand letters and and it was named after the aisle BT
estate um which is uh which was in his family’s possession
um in Sri Lanka and um so he came back and named his his wonderful house and property aslaby but it’s uh if you get
the chance it’s it might be a good story it might be a good little podcast actually too you got pipped by Wellington by the
bunkerless fifth hole at Wellington uh where have not been it’s really hard yeah it’s not far away from you and you
need to you need to complete your education there everyone knows it as the you know the best nine hole course in
the world possibly um Herbert Warren Wynn wrote lows about it but the fifth probably my is my old boss Donald Steele
who who was great in describing the green as a vaulting horse um there’s brilliant expression when you
know the green it just Rises up but it’s only I think it’s something like in terms of the the width the playable
width of the green it’s probably about eight or ten yards wide really and it just drops off into mugs hole to the
left and a steep Bank off to the right down to the um actually an out of bounds ditch
um but it is just you know it’s one of those holes where you’re standing on the tee and you’re just nervous until you
until you see the Bulls fly and generally you’re turning away and disgust as it goes down into mugs hole
but when it’s flying when it’s flying out the green it’s just it’s no better feeling but no bunkers and it’s just
beautifully defended by the width of the green um they’ve really steep surrounds and the and the incredible green Contours
it’s there’s a bit of a thing with your threes so I’m looking at them we’ve got royal Wellington 155 the seventh at Rye
158 Royal Troon eighth 123. well that’s a shorter yeah they’re all quite short
yeah and I have to say I think you know there is a I know a lot of people don’t like the long threes I I actually do
think and probably they’re increasingly an important part of modern golf because it’s the only place where we can test
these great players with a with a long Club on an approach shot um you know most of the power fours now
they can reach with a an eight or a nine iron um so if you can stick a long three in
so Calamity would have been a good one um Port Rush that would have been there but it’s not that’s a really long time that is a long three
um so so I you know I I guess yeah these are these are the threes that just fell out of the exercise and we’ve only got four in
there and I typically now would love to have five par threes in a course I think everyone loves really good part threes
um and if you do fine fine do you think it’s people are starting to move away from the formula of four five threes four par fives yeah I I
think there’s absolute you know no well it depends what the land dictates and what the best holes are from that land
but as a rule I think we quite like the you know the the opportunity to to present
more than four threes on a course so you know five six Maybe one too many so five seems to be the
good number oh well we the barks are red yeah and I think it’s one of the most fantastic golf courses yeah that about
should have been in here actually and yeah I’m sorry oh no it can’t because it’s a heathlander Martin so
um or we can say it’s your Niche um and wrap it up I think the front line because I want to get onto this mutant
of a back nine but one of the most wonderful holes in golf the ninth at County Down
yeah now which one you have you’ve gone for two you’ve gone for slash number one or annersley
um I’ve not played the second course you went there though you have been there and I’ve looked over it
um and I think some of the new holes you’ve put around that corner look absolutely fabulous you can see them from the back of the third yeah it’s a
third green and fourth T but fourth so you’re looking down onto the onto the ninth on the annersley do you think
second course is uh overlooked too much um yeah absolutely I mean I think the annasley links is just I think it’s the
perfect foil really for the number one course here the real test that that is you know just unrelenting
um and yeah who could either go for the ninth on the number one course there which is is a knife on the honestly it
can’t possibly be as good as the ninth it’s a totally different hole it’s a short four um but it has its shares with the ninth
and the number one the backdrop of the mountains and mourn and so any hole that I was choosing at Royal cancer had to have that backdrop he couldn’t explain
away from it and and both of them do and I would argue that the views from the ninth on the Ansley links is possibly
better than review from any other part of the course it is just outstanding and it plays around this enormous great June
um down at the far end of Royal County Down um so yeah the risk of upsetting them at
Royal cancer I go with the anise links one wow love it we like a bit of controversial
in this uh in this pod but you’ve got a bit less controversial with 10. we’re going to start the back now so just to
round up you missed a couple of fronts yeah I know we’re not going to go through them all because we’ve got no time but we we’ve missed it for it it
comes in as a par 35 it’s got three threes uh two fives and it comes in at 3
300 yards so not enormous you know but then you just go turbo on the back it’s better just put a quick mention in for
carnousty six and Rye seven I know we did talk about seven but we can’t understand with the Hogan stories and
whatever is just amazing um and Rye rise just full of well I think five great par threes I think
they’re all good but you know sevens are pretty standout yeah five five and seven are just both yeah and two even two from
nothing really is a brilliant brilliant part three and fourteen is pretty I think one of the most wonderful
Traditions at Rye is where you T of 2 T of three yeah finish two go on to three
it’s just uh exactly I think right just so it’s up yeah wonderful little have we
got all we’ve done all the front ones there oh no hang on Troon we we touched on tune in your pawn shop for short
threes but the shortest of the threes it’s just the scariest hole is it I mean
I’d be fortunate it’s a referee in the open at Troon and even with these great players you know that you can sense the
nervousness when they’re standing on that Tee until they know that they’ve just they’ve hit that green surface because they know that if they miss it
any score is possible so I I’ve never not played true but I did watch the open at Troon uh the year that Sanson won uh
I was there on the Saturday and I think they make such a big deal of that corner as well where you’ve got stadia
everywhere just around that corner yeah and you’ve got the Glide cam over the top so I can imagine as they coming into
that sort of Amphitheater that the pressure must really yeah for 120 yards shot should be bread and butter and I
think for the next open next year or not next year the year after it could well you know we could be seeing a grandstand
that goes the full length of the whole potential really and a bit sort of waste management or uh almost an element of
that but I think it’s one grandstand that you know will be full From Dawn till Dusk but it’s got you can see so
much of everything else as well you can see them complaining seven you see the approach on seven see they’re cutting out seven that’s a great place to set up
shop I think it’s just the most wonderful you know the shortest short hole you can imagine played as 100 yards
in the open on the Saturday I think it was so obviously A lot’s made of Sawgrass 17 not again not done Sawgrass 17. do you
think it’s a more difficult green service to hit than the Sawgrass I would imagine so I’ve never been to Sawgrass but I would think you know just
the I guess the mental issue of being surrounded by water makes 17 seem even smaller than it is but um yeah I would
and I would think I’d love to measure the two but it must be a damn size smaller the postage stamp
as well hence the name yeah it’s um so moving on to your brutish back nine so
the back nine comes in 4 100 yards it turned out a bit tough um unintentional there are three par
fours that are over 440 yards um along there’s only one three which is
probably where the yardage yeah um but the Elsa iconic
yeah 10 going around the bay um is I think one of the most special bits of golfing grounds really that you
can imagine um just arcing Around The Bay there’s not many of our links that really play about with the coastline that actually
have it as a hazard as a feature of the whole um 10 I think you know when there was an
opportunity to push the green back the T had already come down onto the coast it’s gone even further back
um it would you know just having that horizon line green has just sort of put the icing on the cake I think so
um so yeah that just the way it it runs around the coastline I think is uh is is
one of the most majestic places in golf you know teeing off by the lighthouses isn’t bad either
now you’ve got a par three from Royal Liverpool uh the 11th long path through good Pathways in my eclectic cases so
congratulations you um I’m quite interested to talk about the New Path three uh um
that’s going to be in for the 2023 open which is a complete redesign
uh it is yeah how’s that settling anyway are we excited about seeing as this will be the 17th hole and be the 17th hole
yeah and you know the short bathroom layout very short yeah was it I thought it was a 150 I think it’s about 135 yeah
I think it’s so short uh horizon line green um you know and again it wasn’t it
wasn’t conceived by us really we were we were asked to comment upon the the opportunities and then really Mastermind
the detail of it um so and I’m I’m really pleased how it’s shaped up but it I know that it’s a
tough hole for members to play day in day out I really appreciate that um but I hope that a bit like the
postage stamp is revered at Raw true no one would take that that hole out and I’m not saying you know we’ve created
something as great as opposite stamp but I think it’s in that sort of league and character
um and come the open anything can happen on that that 71st hole Yeah that if you
don’t quite get the ball up then it rolls back into the front bunker which then turns into a sand area then that
that you could be there all day um the bunker right hand side is so deep
below the green then that you know you’re playing to a very shallow green at that point don’t want to be long left
is probably the bunker to miss it in if you’re going to miss it anywhere um but if there’s any wind playing
across the hole then that is going to be really interesting and the other benefit to that whole change was um was the the
club 16th of open 18th being lengthened or having the opportunity then to lengthen that by about probably 50 or 60
yards which then allows I suppose brings in more of the
the driving range and in fact the cop was tightened up a little bit as well on that right side so
I think you know the the tee shot on 18 is is really tough now and Rory was
heading to get to the corner still or uh with a really good blow yeah but um yeah Rory hit a drive in a five iron and
thinking on the Saturday pitched it on the green um you know these it’s not all about lengthening but
certainly when you’ve got a final hole in the open you you do and it’s a power five you want to be able to get up into
yeah you want to bring that in like if they can just bully the way out of that out of bounds it’s yeah it does distract
from that yeah well I mean one of the reasons Carnoustie is so great is its finish you know anything can happen yeah
and I think we’ll have the same thing at the open at Royal Liverpool next year so I did move on the 11th what’s so good
about the 11th 11th well the Alps I think yeah just as Holly Lake has that wonderful Coastline stretch I think the
11th is probably one of the you know the key components of that uh that stretch of golf holes
um you know just sits there yeah as you say it’s a long path three but yeah the runoff on the left-hand side
um yeah it’s a classic classic part three in the dunes I think so um yeah definitely absolutely lovely lovely Golf
Club yeah and we’ve talked about 12 um with alaskanish and your naked friend
um I think one of the most interesting you’d go on for 13 because I think when
I went to lythm um I thought the front nine the bunk Queen on the
front now is just Majestic and I remember we I went to the amateur this year and watched um pocket to win
the amateur um and I walked it again and though that stretch around the turn is
very very difficult I think when you I think it’s the the last two that’s I think 13 15 very very difficult well
13’s a short for yeah 14 and 15 are the two tough tough fours but it just I guess yeah it stirs
sort of memories of sevi yeah taking taking Lithium on uh you know and winning twice obviously
um and and the green surface as well has got such beautiful subtle undulations really people use subtle quite often
when they actually describe in really big slopes but uh I think those green slope you know Green shapes are really
you know attractive and very soft but there’s definite movement in there do you think the subtle greens often in
some ways Flomax golfers more because if it’s a big you can say okay this is right so that’s obvious right that’s
just how much yeah whereas I think some of the more demanding greens are the ones you there are so
like you say subtle you like I don’t know this is left or right yeah well you I mean you could argue the case that you
know San Andreas talked about the old course the ninth is just it seems like the flat is green on the course it is the flattest green on the course but
it’s as a result it’s almost the most difficult you know you’re so often hitting you know if a long putt pot
potentially if you’ve got quite close to the green again on a drivable four but very very difficult to lay it up dead so
yeah I think there’s an element of of Truth in what you say there if you’ve got a big slope you really know you know
what you’ve got to do you’ve got to hit it to a spot and let it you know use the Contours um but no I think 13 again it’s stirred
a little bit by Savvy because he was the great hero is he a bigger big absolutely yeah Idol of yours yeah and yeah lucky
to have a bit of a connection with pedrenia in Spain where my wife comes from Santander and her first comment to
me was yes I’ve tried savvy’s green jacket on and and I said no I don’t think yeah but it has to be an Augusta
and she was she was absolutely right and I so I basically called her a lie within five minutes it obviously worked for you
Martin well I don’t know she’s still with me luckily you don’t have to do it anymore but if you do need to just call them a lion and go from there yeah
um Foxy the 14th at dornick about another bunkless golf hole well I mean
just uh Tom’s is my partner he’s a member up there and and just always sings his Praises I don’t know Dawn
anywhere near as well as Tom does but if Tom says it’s right up there then I think it it needs to be in and you know
the green I know the plateau green and again the shapes on it that’s something very special so
um yeah but tough tough four lucky I had a short short of four on 13 11 but uh we’re in for it we’re in for a treat of
tough fours uh 444 445 yards in foxy I
think it’s a it’s a magnificent golf hole there’s no getting away from it it’s so simple and
it’s designed and I think if people think of door lock then Foxy’s probably the whole that they do do think about so
it fell well in terms of The Eclectic 18 I think and then we’re on to the Kent
Coast again princess yeah yeah and princess I don’t know if this is allowed in the rules it’s actually the six on
the dunes but um so 15 somewhere yeah there’s two other nines that you can play to make it the 15th
um and it’s it’s probably a five actually but uh I’ve called it a four it’s a it’s a in some ways it’s got five
there’s a character but I thought four fives might be a bit too many yeah well it starts at five why do you think four four fives is too many well no maybe it
isn’t but it it’s it seems I think my course would be well 506 yards well I
think again when you’re thinking of of I guess tournament golf then it would be a four these days so if you know if the
open ever came back to princes well they do have the qualifying there don’t they yeah they’re qualifying there then you know I think it would be unless the tea
goes way back then 506 would be it would be a four is your work with princes at an end now or is this still on no
ongoing ongoing I think you know it’s great working for you know with with Rob mcgurk and his father he’s in some
fabulous stuff there isn’t it yeah and it’s brilliant you know the fact that if Robin and Mick say it’s going to happen it happens and um and you just get on
with it is that the benefit of working at a proprietary absolutely yeah is it easier oh it’s so much easier so much
easier I mean that’s why Turnberry was such a you know a fun project really is that again it was just really having to
please one one was Donald was he was he involved in it heavily or heavily yeah no it was amazing does he know his golf
yeah absolutely yeah he really he comes up with loads of loads of ideas um it was you know when we first started
with someone that doesn’t that wouldn’t listen to you if you told him that this is the best thing to do he’s still he still wants to move the six over onto
the coach there’s one photograph of us standing on that green and and you can tell from my
body language that I’m not moving that green it’s the six at Turnberry should be in here really but uh it’s um was he
fun to work with yeah he was it was really he learned a lot from a man like that sorry I think the fact that you
know just look at every possibility was was really one of the lessons that I learned you know we went down so many
rabbit holes but occasionally we came back up again and found a really good you know a good outcome
um so he I didn’t think we’d be having exposure to him when we were commissioned to do the work and was so
you know surprised when he was there on the buggy looking at everything that we did every time we were there it was on
the planning side of it then of course he was running for presidency and then became present so he was he wasn’t he
wasn’t around but um but certainly we were sending him back photographs plans and whatever and he would come send them
back with scribbles all over them and uh so no it was a it was a fun experience did you make many changes to the second
course they brought with the Bruce yeah FM phone number changes was yeah was there the same level of interesting yeah
absolutely he was very full-on had some some big ideas for it possibly a major
rerouting more than happened in the end but you know I think get getting that making more use of that land at the far
end of Turnberry is where you know the course really you know hits a high note so that was completely rerouted I’m
gonna sound like an awful podcast somewhere else I’ve yet to visit it’s Terminator it’s um now that land is um
you know there’s very some some iconic golf holes on yeah on Turnberry so but
I’ll come back to princes um I think that hole is just a the June’s nine is
is one of the great well they’re all great nines but that hole in particular the green I think is what prompts it
it’s a really long green front to back it’s got a big big drop off or big runoff on the left-hand side
um and the dunes down the right hand side of the entire length of the hole I think give it real character so very deserved
um part of the eclectic 18. we’ve already talked about the gorgeous
green on the 16th I think ports but is that the reason it made it into your 16 um yeah I think the green is one big big
part of it and the green surrounds but um yeah yeah we would we uh we’re lucky
enough again to be asked by the club to look at look at the whole course found through the old aerial photography that
there used to be a a second half of Fairway up on the left-hand side of the approach area to the to the hole
um somehow it just disappeared over time and grown up as rough so we restored that and it’s just great to have those
options of how do you play the whole yeah it’s sort of it’s floated between a four and a five over the years but I
think very much was a bogey five when it was first conceived so now it is a par five and if you can’t get up into then
there’s a big reason to go down the left onto this bit of Fairway that we’ve restored
um because you get a beautiful view into the to the Green from there whereas down in the bottom which can flood when it’s
when you know real winter high water table levels come up and perhaps that’s why that had an alternative route to the
Fairway to the left do you think um do you think that’s a generic kind of thing
that’s happened over time with most British courses that we’ve kind of lost Fairway very much I mean it’s always pretty much
a unanimous um you know always a consistent finding that Fairways have become much narrower
and maybe with reasons you know they were so wide some of them in the past and width is a good thing there’s no
doubt about it you don’t want to be telling people exactly where to hit it down the you know it’s got to be within
a 15 20 yard width of Fairway um but yeah you can see how things have
evolved over the years so generally Our advice is mow out the fairways back to what they were certainly at Ross and
George’s which got you know was getting a bad name quite often you know from the pros
heading it right down the middle and ending up in the rough said well when you’ve got those beautiful undulations don’t don’t dumb them down yeah just
make your Fairways wider again so that’s happened here that’s one of the great things about the old course is that
um fellow architect Clyde Johnson came on the podcast a few months back and he said think about the old course you can
hit the same drive two days in a row and because of those undulations you can be playing from vastly different places
um which makes the whole you know that much more interesting because you’re not playing the same thing two
days in a row but if you’re right if you suddenly make that all that rough you can’t play from yeah and the ball ends up in the same spot so yeah no it’s a
good point you know when you think of a again when you’ve got no life in the fairways when it’s you know and there’s no no run on the ball then yeah the ball
is always staying in the same place with the same t-shirt so it’s a good yeah very good point and your final golfer which I think is
one of my favorite holes uh it doesn’t play the 18th in the Senior Open no uh but the 18th raw portal I think plays
the first in the same difference is the first you’re right yeah yeah yeah yeah wow best best because the sun sets yeah
behind it as well so if you’re playing it in the evening it’s the 18th of raw fourth call um tell us about it well I it was good
to discover that you’re actually Welsh so I’m a problem so I knew that would please you then in
the end when you said it was your favorite course yeah for sure so no I think the it’s so rare to have
a hole that plays you know perpendicularly towards the coast um and to have that as a visual feature
in the background I guess born by the incredible position of the clubhouse and as we said what a wonderful Clubhouse it
is but yeah hopefully that’ll never change um but to see that sort of sweep down
down the slope as you say sun does set in that direction so it can be even more testing it’s a tough tough four
um often played into the wind but I think again it’s just the the green it’s almost like you know Donald’s
description of um of the fifth at worlington just the way it it just drifts its way down the slope so it
handles away from it’s brilliant and I have to say it it was um the scene of a quite a sad end to a
match um it was Oxford against Cambridge match and and my captain at the time Jamie Rumble
um in fact Gordon mcsween was the captain but Jamie was the Secretary of that year he was Captain the next year um but he was he was playing
um against uh his Oxford opponent who’d managed to sort of top it off the tee
and top top his third shot Jamie had hit a drive and a three would deadens the wind to the front edge of the green so
because he was there a railing wind isn’t it yeah so Jamie was there in two the Oxford
um guy was there in four and so he’s the game over you know just
when especially when the Oxford man just knocked it down and yeah added six so Jamie hits his first part and doesn’t
quite hit it hard enough so he’s left 10 feet you know short and then his next part almost stops at
the hole and then just drifts on another 18 inches two feet and he missed the return and that was the only reason he
didn’t end up with 100 record wow and sadly poor Jamie he died from cancer at
the age of 27 I think it was 26 27 he was one of the most wonderful people you could meet shock of blonde hair everyone
remembered him um but he you know that if any if there’s another fitting reason to choose
18 at porth call then it’s uh in Jamie’s memory because um it was it was willing to know him it
was brilliant it’s brilliant to know about 18th at Port court I think it is it I I was struggling for the 18th and
all of a sudden oh God Paul’s called I’ve got Paul’s calling then that just hit me it’s got to be the 18th well
that’s the thing about golf isn’t it is it gives us all these wonderful stories and wonderful memories and allows people
in it even if it’s winning a match on a Thursday night against
who cares who they allow you opportunities to to do memorable things
and I think that’s the best thing about our sport is that we can we can have these wonderful opportunities these wonderful moments to remember these
wonderful people so Martin that’s I’m going to finish it’s 4 100
yards uh nine holes it’s a par well we’ve got 73
a 7400 yards uh you are a sadist but Martin thank you so much for coming on the podcast and uh
it’s been wonderful thank you I wouldn’t want to play that back nine but it’s nice to just say it take you a while it’s a lot of travel Tom thank you very
much keep up the good work