hello and welcome back to another episode of the cookie jar golf podcast Sam here we’ve got an exciting episode
today a little bonus course Diaries episode so we’ve got about 30 minutes with Christian and Lucas Christian’s the
chimney greens at canima uh and and Lucas is the head of the links the uh the head green keeper uh so this is all
part of our Netherlands series content so seven films All released every week every Tuesday and if you haven’t checked
it out already go straight over to YouTube and watch the film about canima which we released on Tuesday night big
shout out to our series sponsor FootJoy for helping make his dream trip become a reality we were super lucky to get to
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glove and the FootJoy pure touch is exactly that soft stacks of feel but
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it’s so popular on tour FootJoy the number one glove in the UK and did you know that one in every two UK golfers
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www.footjoy.co.uk and without further Ado it’s over to the Pod with Christian and Lucas this[Applause] [Music] [Applause] has the uh has the start to the year
been for you yeah still okay uh we’re expecting some Frost next week okay we’re gonna close
for uh one or two days but uh mostly a good weather stable yeah good everything
has stopped what’d you do in the frost there’s a real difference of views in this country when
we get frost on our greens some stay open and they say it’s not hey Christian how you doing morning morning we are
doing well you yeah really good really good Miss engulf in the Netherlands I must admit watching watching the films
now brings back some really good memories and uh yeah what a great day we had at Panama so uh so yeah but you guys
are all keeping well we are very uh doing very well very busy times to be honest
it’s uh we’re doing a lot in the course and uh this is always our let’s say our
most important months of the year with a lot of yeah not reconstructions but let’s say
renewals of Teas Pathways uh we are
thinning our course as well on the a-hole so we are pulling bushes and trees and things like
that’s just to open up the green the core so you’re missing out so next time you’re here it’s totally different again
if you see Dunes yeah yeah great well I’ve not played the a obviously so I’m I’m kind of excited
just before you join this question I was obviously all of the content we recorded from the Netherlands was
um kind of back in October really and now we’re in the depths of winter it’s uh it’s a different sport in the winter
it’s really hard to kind of get your gold thing fixed is it does everything stay open through the winter there I’ve
seen some really snowy pictures of Eindhoven like how do you guys fare in the winter months
yeah normally we stay as open as possible also don’t make use of the wintergreens
only if the there is a long period of frost okay in where the course will get
damaged by using the the summer greens it’s a weird one isn’t it there’s like a
difference of opinion in this country some clubs think it does no damage with a golf ball on frosted green and they
just stay open and others at the slightest side of cold weather they switch to it anyway I don’t know so look
we should do some little round of introductions so we’ve got Christian Christian how would you introduce
yourself um Christian the chairman of the the greens like you say in England that
chairman of the green committee uh 44 years of old uh years of old I’m really
crazy about golf and uh I’d like to be uh working on the
course as well you know it’s it’s it’s uh yeah I’m a go of Love lover let’s say
in all aspects of the game yeah I got that a little bit when we that’s it in the morning we played and
we’ve got Lucas Lucas you’re you’re the did you say you know well you sort of
had links links manager head green keeper there’s so many titles today yeah there’s all different titles and
everyone uh says the different at each course but we use the the term had green
keeper 42 years old uh I work almost 22 years as a as a green keeper wow 13
years here at the camera and five years now as uh as the the has been given wow
you guys both being in your 40s I I think Christian you listen to our tour podcast but the repeating theme is
people in Holland look ridiculously useful you’re all tall you’re all good looking
and you all look way younger than that yeah it’s the healthy food over here maybe yeah a lot of buddhical and
cheese cheese well what is it because you served as the Clipper for lunch and
that didn’t seem like a healthy meal so I don’t know what you’re doing it’s the sauce which makes it unhealthy let’s say
but I don’t know if maybe it’s the air and we are active people maybe here in
the Holland and uh Keeps Us slim on some of my notes I wasn’t going to
get to this as the starting point but I feel like we have to start at the sleeper is that is that pronounced right
so we had this for lunch what is it it’s it’s a it’s a famous sandwich here
on the kennemer world famous on the kennemer and uh it’s uh when I became a member that was in 2000 the first thing
I ate over here was a Clipper and it’s it’s a sand it’s a couple of sandwiches with salads and uh roast beef but rare
in the very rare and then some I think it’s horseradish and an egg yeah yeah there’s also an egg
some eggs on top of it and it’s it’s world famous on the kennemer it’s a lovely dish it’s not too uh sometimes
you have very heavy lunches but this is not that heavy you know so it’s really good and a very typical sauce very
typical yeah and uh we always ask for more sauce yeah
you guys do food it great over there look so that’s not the reason you guys are on I think
um kennem is one of those places where the course itself it’s not complicated but maybe the evolution of the golf
course is a little bit more complicated three nines when we got there really early to play and it was Pitch Black we
had a really fascinating discussion about the work you guys are doing to the course and these short podcasts are kind
of about putting in a bit more context I guess around a course visit beyond the short film we’ve produced
um obviously I would highly recommend people to go and watch that film I think and then the links look beautiful don’t
they when we got that little sort of scattering of sunshine bursting across the links like it’s it looks spectacular
um tell us a little bit about the course I don’t know who to go to here but you know got got two guests on the podcast
but you know there’s there’s 27 holes it’s quite a strange Evolution that got
us to 27 holes and we’ve spent loads of time talking over WhatsApp trying to sort of get this right in my head I mean
who wants to who wants to go first yeah I can go first you know for originally it was 18 holes and uh it was uh we the
move the club moved here in 1928 yeah the discussions uh to to move over
obviously were earlier in 26 I think it was 1926 that colt came over and it was
asked to design a course in 27. um it was built in 28 and opened and it
wasn’t a club a very active club with a lot of golfers and soon afterwards there
was already in and and a request for adding another nine and it was let’s say
in the late 30s uh and then the war came so all the plans
uh the second world war came so all the plans were in the in the fridge let’s say like we say here in Holland and uh
so it took many decades to uh to uh to make it 27 holes
um and it finally happened in 1985 so not that far away quite recently uh in
fact but uh it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s a little bit different of the first 18 uh
the first 18 or more open up and and the third nine is more a little bit more uh
the higher Dunes a little bit tighter also in in terms of Fairways and greens
uh and uh so that was the evolvement of the course itself yeah and I think I
might be wrong in this but I’m pretty sure kanama was the first assignment for Colt in the Netherlands I think that was
the first one and then you know Ernst de pan sort of tells us that you know it was kind of like how you would
get a plumber or an electrician you sort of ask your friends for recommendations and they say oh this chap Colt was very
good at kenma so you know why didn’t you speak to him and I guess there really the Legacy was born pen Ink’s quite key
isn’t he in in the in the A9 now we didn’t play the a um you can see it off to the right on
the sort of opening holes of of the B loop I think it looks I mean some of the there’s some holes with blind drives and
stuff all over there when you say it’s a little tighter do you see more of like uh you know maybe sort of a post-world
war architecture thread there do you see more severity is it a little bit more penal you know how do you is there a
massive difference between the nines yeah there is a lot of difference let’s start by how the layout is done is
tighter but also Challenger the rain is also very challenging there is a lot of
elevation difference and only six bunkers no way yes and it’s a it’s a harsh
course to play because of the elevations and uh to place your ball in a good position for to take the second shot to
the D Elf on the Supreme is uh yeah and do you do your members do you
typically find your members play the you know the the a-loop a lot do you plays what’s like the core members Loop that
kind of people play was it a total mix like I’ve heard all Loops are great
whereas usually you have like a third nine and nobody plays that third nine you know whereas I get the sense here
everyone plays all Loops yeah now we’re changing all the time within the the loops and uh because we think all the
three uh course the nine holes are good when we have the for instance the club
championships we tend to play the B and C course the original course also uh before there uh and to have to let the
history repeat itself and then all the Champions played the BNC chord but if it’s we are reconstruction working on uh
B or C then we tend to go to the ahos but normally the loops change all the time so we don’t have a fixed routine
yeah nice and there’s been quite a bit of work Lucas you were telling us there’s been a lot of work to the links over the last few years you seem like
you’re hugely invested in your craft you know this is you know you take it very seriously your line of work what been
the big things that you’ve done I mean wouldn’t I think our recent tour podcast we touched on things like grass Pathways
you know being being quite clear what are the sort of big developments of the course that you’ve been leading yeah
there are a lot of developments uh going on here at the academesh not only architectural part but also in the
maintenance spot but let’s start at the architectural uh things that are changing we made we made a lot of plans
in the past plans was done by a Martin horti or architect
and we decided to to change a lot of shelf Buffs
to Grass Buffs I’ve been a major work every winter to get every winter we did
some changes on from Shell baths to Grass baths
second thing it was a lot of these they were very they built like uh elevated
dish and the sides were not integrated in the dunes in the mindset of Martin we
create a new g-spots without changing the the distance but making more
integrated into the dunes just making it look natural isn’t it really like I think one of the things you know massive
takeaway from you know really all of the courses was how much the aesthetic of being natural is really
important and I remember you telling us I think it was you Lucas that said we don’t we try not to have any coarse
Furniture like we want almost none we want this to feel totally natural and things like the grass Pathways will make
you know just make such a big difference to how that flows as a golf course doesn’t it which is amazing is it really
hard in the Netherlands to achieve some of that given some of the agronomical constraints you have so I think you know
in the past you know it’s been explained like you guys don’t really have the medicine cabinet maybe that you know
maybe the course is over in Britain and Ireland have when it comes to their links and things like those grass
Pathways between Dunes like they must be really hard to kind of nurture and go
without without putting lots of chemicals down right yeah yeah let’s bring some challenges
but nowadays the grass types are very strong also during winter time and we
made the the grass Parts in such a way that is manageable also in the
conditions in Holland to keep it healthy without spraying any chemicals or using
a lot of virtualizing and yeah this theory is also been done through the
whole course we not spray fungicides for like two years now anywhere on the course we treat spots
with herbicides to spot treatments only to to guess the less and less input and
we did a very good job of doing that and uh yeah also the course committee is
very proud of us uh how do you uh try uh how are we managing this situation uh
yeah yeah well it means it’s like a Christian I don’t know if you listen to the the Pod we did with case uh when we
were down at Eindhoven and you know I suppose for us that was a real light bulb moment in thinking
yeah wow there’s like a really different approach to this stuff like in promoting the finer grasses making things more
sustainable you’ve been involved of chairman of greens for a while now have you seen that you know does that come
through do you measure the you know the turf and the soil structure are you seeing things like you know the benefits
of having more finer grasses coming through as a result we we what we see is
that we are not stressing the grasses that much anymore so the Peaks and the the and and the depths is they’re gone
let’s say and the sustainability sustainable grasses helps us to have a
much healthier course um with no big Peaks or depths you know
that’s I think that’s the main thing but as a club it’s uh it takes a long time
and also in a long process that the members are adapting to the new ID and
it takes also many years changing this uh sustainable thinking
um and and the end result should be that you have a stable uh uh course condition
uh and even if it’s the grasses on The Fairway even in the grass is on the t’s
as well and as on the greens so it’s a way of thinking um it’s also a way of
uh changing and and and taking the members with you because the members in
the end result are the players and are like Lucas always say they are the customers so
uh if they do complain uh then we have an issue but it’s it’s it’s
um changing to sustainable grass is really important and you say you keep your grass healthy and in that case uh
we see less uh illnesses on the greens for instance and uh that’s that’s the
good move yeah did you find at the time there was a big change in sentiment with
the membership you mentioned there is it was there like a big transitionary period that meant for a while it was
quite hard like you had to have a couple of Seasons maybe where it was a bit more furry or a bit harder to it wasn’t maybe
I mean people are obsessed with green speeds in this country and I’m sure it’s no different over in over in Holland but
everywhere in the world yeah yeah and then and but the big thing is you know so we had some opens in what was it 15
16th 2015 2016 and our greens were really full of Poa
and and the only thing uh with POA you can do is use pesticides to keep it in
some sort of playable condition but it’s not sustainable you know it’s
it’s the the like I said the Heights and the depths are really uh big
um but it’s not a sustainable way and my my predecessor uh Yom he had to change
the approach and he was able to take the the the the the the the the the club uh
to uh what we are doing right now instead of renew like 27 greens because
that’s an even bigger step in the end it seems like short-term smart solution but in the end for us it didn’t work because
the amount of work and the amount of and the finances the financials behind it was really terrible but the new approach
it takes some time and in The First beginning because we were one of the first quarters in the Netherlands to do
this approach so we have to find out uh like everything ourselves with our agronomists uh
um to [Music] to get the right direction and find everything out so everything was new for
us so what you have to do like I’ve got no idea how you do that do you just have to pull back on all the chemicals and
exp kind of accept that the the power grass kind of just comes out on its own and then and just force it into almost a
period of death for some of those grass types and then you know kind of seed more with with the fascular I have no
idea how you do that yeah you you start with the inferiorization of your of your
situation at that moment and the situ the situation is also the playability uh
the the turf condition and also your top layer condition and you start first to
uh to try to evolve or try to uh to
increase uh your infiltration rate there’s a big problem here because the
course is very old it’s built on the push-up as native soil and the infiltration is very low and as
you try you first try to to make the infiltration better get rid of the water
as quickly as possible afterwards is of course the tax problem the buildup
of organic matter in the top layer and then it can’t dry and can it because you’ve got like thatch is basically the
compression of the soil underneath and yes you know then you can’t drain so then that’s what kind of causes the I
suppose the root structure to yeah yeah it’s compression and also buildup of organic matter leaves and roots that
died and is not being allowed to uh to
be dissolved by the bacteria and funguses then after that you treat the touch then finally you can oversheet
with good grasses and that takes in a period of three to five years to get to that part so it’s
super long term isn’t it yeah this is this takes real commitment yeah yeah it’s a real commitment then after after
you have the good grasses and they establish at your top layer and then you can take very good care with your
virtualizing and your water how you irrigate the gouache to get the good
results and when the gases are there you can start to to make your boundaries for
playability there’s how much green speed you can average uh how much click you
can average and then try to improve that every time more yeah it’s fascinating
you get me thinking we did a we did a podcast with John McLaughlin who’s the course manager at Wallace if you’ve
heard of it so they they invented the Stapleford system there um and he’s a
it’s kind of like you Lucas like he’s so obsessed with his craft and he has these things about trying to make things one
percent better every day so like they do daily Clegg readings daily sort of stint
measurements they’re constantly looking the grass type and everything’s about that long-termist approach it’s not
about oh I’ve got the club championships happening in June and we’re just going to cut them short and we’re going to get
them Lush you know it’s everything’s part of a long-term plan and I think you know that’s quite hard and it’s quite
maybe quite nice having you both on because it speaks to the work you’re doing and then how you manage the
membership because those two things are very much hand in hand so I guess Christian a lot of your work is really
trying to you know kind of give Lucas the air cover and the and the support and and help kind of field all the kind
of concerns when when the greens don’t feel as quick or when you go through transitionary periods which is which is
amazing I want to talk a little bit about the golf course there’s so many highlights I felt like when we played
the B and C there’s some maybe because you think the Netherlands is such a flat
country you don’t really expect the the kind of bold features and the
crazy landforms that go with this this will be the first links course that we’ve probably probably shown on our on
our YouTube films today yeah um and I think a lot of people will look at
that and go this wasn’t the links course I was expecting what are some of the big sort of highs for you and real
highlights on the course for me the the highlights of the course are the the the the the the the closing holes to be
effect you know we have some three excellent closing holes they do what you were doing there Christian they always
hoping that because you know we didn’t play the last three I know but you know but I think we have three nines
you know what I love about the game is that when you’re playing well you always have to bring your score at home and you
play Power five and then you can play it out and then you’re happy with the five
that’s okay but we are blessed with three closing holes A9 B9 C9 which are
really have to be on top of your game so it is which I think is really good
um in terms of the course what we like we have relative small greens yeah that’s really cold I think
but um but we have because of the the great condition our greens are in the
last few years we have very subtle uh uh how do you call that uh subtle yeah undulations
undulations on the green and this is what I really like about our course you know it’s it’s uh we play an average
during the the season on stem nine nine and a half I think uh nine nine and a half feet and uh um
and then this really subtle undulation our green comes to lie it comes alive
you know this is really typical for our course I think yeah and I think you can always someone very wise once said to me
you’ve got some courses that have undulations around the greens and some that have it within and when you you get both it
really does come alive and like you say when the greens are running you know nine nine and a half with the greens we
were playing is like adequate like it’s more than adequate because there’s quite a bit of movement within those that you
know you go really quick you know you’ve got you’re gonna get around the golf courses uh is the honest answer
um I want to talk we’ve had a lot of people since we started releasing the Netherlands content
talking about trips and you know all of a sudden because there’s never been much
content about the golf courses in the Netherlands you know in terms of films and visuals and stuff in the past people
are really curious to know about you know what it’s like as a visiting golfer and you know Christian I don’t want to
put you on the spot as a spokespersonal but I’m kind of gonna do
that because people like say to us are these clubs private are they accessible
can you go and play them are they all crazy expensive and
yeah I guess I kind of put you on the spot there maybe not just talking about Canada but just golf in the Netherlands broadly as a as a visitor because I feel
like it’s such an easy place to get to from Britain and it’s such a like I can’t
remember doing a gold trip where there’s the same breadth of course type you know we are I think as a country we are uh we
are a logistic country for instance you know every year you can travel easily to uh to uh to to the Netherlands and
unfortunately KLM wouldn’t work with you uh on your trip over here so you had to
go by car but uh in the end you know the best decision ever actually indeed you
know we have our our highways are really good so and and all our clubs are close to Great cities so uh I know was
beautiful we are close to Harlem and Amsterdam which are great cities and uh
and we have some we are a little bit modest I think in the Netherlands as well about our golf courses you know
it’s it’s um we have some great heritage we have some great golf courses we are close to
some really beautiful cities of course and uh but we are a little bit modest I
think and uh I think we are not closed as a golf course we are a private course but we you can play uh always if you
want uh just a phone call away or an email away and I think that that Council
so for other old nine clubs but next to that we have some excellent golf courses
as well uh outside the old nine uh some new courses which are uh really nice uh
close to Amsterdam with the international with the Dutch in the South part and bernardes which are
pre-all premium courses but I think all other cores are also really nice and[Music] um so I think as a golf destination uh
Netherlands is could be on the map and accessible isn’t that like it’s you
know they’re not you know you’re talking about you know the courses we’ve covered in this series really are the yeah what would be baby by objective rankings be
described as the best five but they’re all part of that old nine you know that old group of courses that were there at
the very early foundations of Dutch golf correct um and but there’s a lot more
out there isn’t there and like you say the fact that that you know top tier of that golf is accessible in that country
that’s something we’re very lucky with in Britain and Ireland um and yeah I kind of wanted your take
on that because we never really did a good job of covering that I think at the beginning of the series and you know having you speak to that is key
um guys it’s been a blast just having you on for a short discussion I think the there was one part in the film where
we talk about the the World War II occupation and the bunkers within the course there’s 122 German military
bunkers buried around within the course who can tell me about that because that’s an incredible number isn’t it and
you know the the wartime events shape a lot of gulp I think in Holland it’s fair to say whether it’s you know Den hug and
the changes there that happen with the ownership of the course and it becoming the home of Royal Hague and Eindhoven
with the Lancaster bomber there’s so much you know it interrupted the development of the 27 whole course which
would probably look completely different you know if it wasn’t for World War II yeah I you know I think Lucas your your
green keeper sheds are in the in the Nazi bunkers right yeah yeah the green keeper shared as my office and the
canteen and the locker locker room is uh in a second world uh Blanco
and uh yeah it’s a really great story of the course of course a less prettier
story of course about the war but it’s still a piece of History here at the
Academy there are yeah about 122 to 130
bunkers and they’re all built as a grouping of uh German occupied at that
time because they were expecting the crossover to Bean at Sanford of near
Sanford oh yeah of course which is only what maybe two kilometers or something to the
shore from where you are yeah yes and as they built not only that but they will uh artillery uh shooting bunkers and
also uh trenches for anti-tanker trenches and walls and they go also past
the course a lot with aerating uh we sometimes hit
a small part of the of the wall do you really sometimes you’ll get and you’ll
get you’ll be digging and underneath all of a sudden you’ll hit concrete yes and uh big big piece of concrete yeah yeah
and the the uh it’s a piece of History we use uh some Bonkers for the canteen
one of the banks for the canteen and the officer space others for shelters and
others for storage bonkers and we try to uh to use them but this is
a piece of history of the yeah that is very unique yeah yeah it’s like a timely
reminder as well are they all interconnected is there like a sort of an underground Labyrinth of how these
bunkers they’re just like they go in and they’re like maybe two or three rooms are they and they’re just dug in where
yeah okay got you so there’s not like some underground city here with
top secret files or anything in there no no no no and the the the the the
clubhouse is also occupied but uh thank God is Not destroyed of damaged by
fire of anything this is still uh yeah of bombing so they just left the clubhouse Bay nothing really happened
and because I mean we should talk about the clubhouse actually I mean it’s a beauty I don’t know if I
can have a favorite because the five places we went they were all great clubhouses like all amazing
like you go to a lot of clubs in Britain and you get some great club houses and you get some like ah they’re okay yeah
they are all great absolutely I think it’s part of what we
we like it’s also a social thing at golf and uh and a lot of the social thing
happens in the clubhouse itself so and and all the clubhouses are old so they
need some conservation and uh and I think we are proud and uh every course
we are proud on that so we conservate well I think yeah and the Terrace The
Terrace is just a great spot just looking out down I think you’ve got 9B down there you’ve got the first hole
that plays away in front of it you’ve got the snooker room over your shoulder with a massive bay window that looks out
it’s uh yeah I think um guys it’s been great getting you on the Pod I just wanted to talk more about Canada like
you just can’t do these places Justice in a seven minute film you know it’s really it’s really tricky and you know
we had such a great time when we came and visited I’m ashamed about what happened with the timing so for everyone’s cup for a bit of context I’d
agree to meet you Christian I think at eight o’clock in the morning um and the light was not conducive to golf
it was Pitch Black I think that was my bad I hadn’t thought about the time zone
changes um so we kind of We we played we played up to 15 which is still a great
finishing hole the part three up the hill like iconic shot across that Ridge like just the most incredible part three
um but I do feel like a day at kenoma needs to be a day where you see all 27 holes if you’re visiting you know and
you have lunch and you have time and you know I think we talked about that in our tour podcast but you know if there’s if
there’s one if there’s one regret from that trip it’s that we we tried to squeeze too much in into two days like a
day at nordvike and a day at Canada it’s better than doing 36 even though they’re close don’t let it fool you it’s uh
these are Big courses and they’re places you want to spend time so yeah you have to undergo it that’s the the you have to
have the full treatment well you’re coming to Black World so you can see that anyway you’re gonna come to Blackwell this year I will certainly uh
become cheer for sure for sure and uh and then we’ll only play Blackwell then
yes we’ll do it for several days and we will not leave but gentlemen it’s been an absolute pleasure and best of luck
with everything you’re doing all right thank you and take care we love your uh content yeah it’s really nice it was
really nice when uh okay stole the that Evergreen keeping all of this a farmer
so we’ll go back to Case and remind them that not every Dutch green keeper is a farmer I’ve never heard that expression
before you know is not true but I think this is a very
she is she by one side I think there is a lot of good green Keepers here in Holland and a lot of good head green
Keepers that understand what must be done and understand her how to to do
that but the thing is it’s kind of on you as well to you know the green keepers at the leading venues to kind of
set the example then and bring other people through and that will happen through generations as it kind of changes it’s the same in Britain like
yeah so but if he if he’s seen case he wasn’t mentioned it to him because he
was what was he you were a chief of the the chairman of the green uh keeping Association yeah and he made and he
helped also to uh to to develop the the education for all the green juice
next time I see him back great stuff guys I’ve uh I’ve really
enjoyed that that was really good fun